Trans lesbian?

Maybe this whole debate shows a new term or phrase or name should be coined for trans women who are attracted to women, so their can be no confusion, hurt or upset?

I have two trans male friends and they're both in relationships with women. They don't consider themselves lesbians because they don't consider themselves women any longer. This is why I think I struggle with the logic on this thread as it would suggest they should call themselves lesbians. But I appreciate the struggle that some of you and your loved ones have been through which is why you feel as you do.

Lol 'the erasure of genuinely lesbian only spaces is a harm in itself' - it's not trans issues that have caused that, the spaces that have been attempted for lesbians only have not been economically successful because they're not populated enough by their targeted market. And if they do get some numbers they still don't get the spending. They don't generate enough money to be sustainable.

I suppose there are transwomen holding us back at the doors?!

Thank god that there are a huge range of diversely identifying individuals going to these places - it's what keeps them open so that me and my lesbian friends can enjoy them

Oh FFS. People with intersex conditions are either maleor female. They're not non-anything and should be treated with respect.

[quote LasagnaEater]@AnyOldPrion I'm not talking about women, in the conversation of Gender attraction involving lesbians, when I say non-men I mean someone who doesn't identify as a man OR a woman, eg. Nonbinary, Intersex [/quote]
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Lasagna please don't disrespect people with DSD They are not part of this discussion.

I couldn't care less if they find another word, but they cannot appropriate words based on sex and pretend they're based on something else entirely.

And, specifically, the word lesbian is taken.

@AnyOldPrion I'm not talking about women, in the conversation of Gender attraction involving lesbians, when I say non-men I mean someone who doesn't identify as a man OR a woman, eg. Nonbinary, Intersex

Heterosexual fits the bill @GrownUpBeans

Woops typo, *means non men

GrownUpBeans but they are biological men attracted to women.
So... straight men seems accurate?

If they are attracted to women and transwomen they aren't heterosexual. Not a lesbian because not female. New words needed.

Isn't a trans lesbian a heterosexual male?

That is far too logical for this debate.

I can't remember the link now, hopefully someone else can, but I read comments I believe on Twitter and possibly Facebook of presumably transmen who were outraged that gay men wouldn't consider them as sexual partners.

These transmen were perfectly confident that they were entitled to have sex with men who are not interested in women. And the subsequent rebuff unleashed a torrent of the worst homophobia.

They have been told that they are genuinely men, and gay men cannot say otherwise.

Women are well used to the pressure to have sex that they don't consent to, but men, not so much.

The disbelief and horrified outrage was palpable. As it should be. And of course, suddenly, they saw what lesbians had been getting at.

Same-sex orientation is protected by law.

The gay and lesbian community have spent decades making sure that their sexual orientation is legitimate and accepted.

And in a couple of short years, a juggernaut of a sexual rights movement like no other, is telling them they're fucking wrong.

And, yes, we all know the reason.

Because of bloody course sexual orientation based on sex. Transwomen who only want to sleep with women?? Transmen who only want to sleep with men?

Sexual orientation is absolutely based on sex. And now people are being forced to deny their sexual orientation, in order to supply validation.

I have nothing but contempt for people who are trying to destroy sex-based rights in the name of their own self service.

And this, OP, is why I never ever buy the Guardian. The Times has a better grip on biological reality (most of the time) or at least covers the issues of self-id on women's rights.

@talkingtolangcleginthedark thank you. I will suggest that. She did mention lgb alliance, before but given some of the backlash aimed at them, she worried it would make college more difficult if anyone found out she was in some way aligned to them.

Its is very sad. But we will get her through it. And as someone said, earlier, I can slowly see the tide changing. i hope it does.

I want transwomen to be able to exist how they want, in peace without fear of harm. Just like I want women to be able to.

But I don't want to see other marginalised groups erased and abused to accommodate their every wish.

And yet there are lesbians who are quite happily dating trans lesbians. Because some individuals happen to be attracted to other individuals.

My understanding, which maybe be wrong, is that if you are attracted to people based on the individual and are happy to date people of any sexuality, sex, or gender that was Pan sexual, not lesbian.

I get the whole 'people can identify as they are want', not sure I agree. But words have meanings. And under the current definitions lesbian would be incorrect.

Its more concerning because self ID of sexuality, is erasing lesbians. If the definition of lesbian, changes to same gender attraction. You are essentially, telling lesbians who are same sex attracted, they are no longer lesbians. What label are you going to 'allow' them to use?

When I mean you, I mean the people who would make these decisions. Not a specific 'you'.

Trevsadick I’m really sorry to hear of your DD’s experience. The exclusion of actual lesbians from the so-called LGBTQ+ community is utterly shameful, and it makes a mockery of their claim to be “inclusive” and to represent all those different groups of people equally.

It is clear that lesbians’ interests cannot be represented by a “community” that prioritises gender identity ahead of sex, and in fact the same apples to the interests of gay men who are similarly clear about being exclusively same sex attracted, although obviously as men they are under far less pressure.

It’s scandalous that there is no longer a specific term that clearly means “exclusively same sex attracted woman”. Or rather there is, but it’s been hijacked to mean something very different..

I hope your DD can find support and community among other lesbians, Trevsadick - I am wondering if the LGB Alliance will be able to start running social/community events along exclusively same-sex lines in the light of their officially recognised charitable status and the Maya Forstater ruling. That would be tremendous to see.

We can't expect people to act like they're discrete categories; that's not real life.

Ok some people who think they are straight/gay/lesbian might discover at a later date that they are in fact bi but the difference here is that they don't pretend to be homosexual if they are attracted to someone of the opposite sex. The word lesbian has a very particular meaning . It refers to a female person exclusively attracted to other female people. Transwomen cannot be lesbians because they are male and appropriating the name of an another marginalised group is in this case both homophobic and misogynistic.

Transwomen are men. Trans lesbians are men who say they are lesbians and are attracted to women. They are straight men. A woman who says she's a lesbian (a woman who is exclusively sexually attracted to women) ceases to have any claim to be a lesbian once she starts a relationship with a transwoman. They're in a straight male-female relationship.

Hear, hear.

Here is a very good (and very saddening) piece on how this pretence that opposite sex attracted males can be lesbians is directly harming actual lesbians. Lesbians are being discriminated against and excluded from lesbian dating apps, and also from the wider “LGBTQ+” “community”, if they aren’t willing to see these “male lesbians” as potential partners.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

As others have said, the complete erasure of genuinely lesbian only spaces is a harm in itself. In a male dominated society, where the male gaze is so prevalent, pernicious and intrusive, all women and especially lesbians should be entitled to public spaces where they are free from that male gaze, where they can set their own agenda without having to cater to the wishes of those whose male biology and male privilege make them unwelcome there.

I'm not in the habit of correcting other people's self identifications, so, I think you'll find, no I do not.

Really! You would accept anyone's self identification? So you think Rachel Dolezal is really a woman of colour?

If that gay woman was to ask them out should they be considered rude and aggressive? Sure, if they'd got the wrong end of the stick and were belligerent about being knocked back of course. But it also might be the beginning of a relationship. The rudeness is in the style of interaction, not the categorisation of people.

We can't expect people to act like they're discrete categories; that's not real life.

Well I am genuinely surprised and saddened if that is a common experience for straight women. Everyone has got the right to ask out anyone they like, nobody has any right to an acceptance.

There is no if. Its a fact. Bars and pubs have started putting in place support systems for women, on dates who are afraid for their safety or want to end a date or are just out with their friends and want to get away from a man who won't take the hint and go away. The general advice is don't tell a man face to face you don't want to date him. Because it puts you in danger.

When I was a teen in the 90s, the advice, for a short time, it was tell them You are a lesbian, which is not only harmfull and disrespectful to lesbians but, also, didn't work. Then they started with the 'can I join in?' Or 'that's cool as long as I can watch'.

Men and boys are often taught, that if a woman turns you down you should keep trying. She will eventually say yes. Women are told if man keeps trying with you, you should at least give it a go, of they want to date you so bad.

Women have always expected to be grateful for any male attention. I am shocked and saddened you didn't know this. But also jealous, you and no one you know has ever had this situation.

Given the above, it's not entirely surprising that lesbians, especially young ones have people trying to condition them into dating a biological male or be ostracised from the community.

There are several people on this thread telling you that their young lesbian daughters are experiencing it. Its not enough to say "it's not my experience so it's not common or doesn't happen".