‘White’ Feminism

Sorry, the concepts in the image I posted were devised by Prof Barnor Hesse, an Associate Professor of African American Studies, Political Science, and Sociology at Northwestern University (USA). As you can imagine, they got shared widely online and opinions were divided. I did just share it because it got a reaction from me and I wondered what other reactions would be. But it is, yet again, from the USA.

I guess maybe we should talk about something by Afua Hirsch? David Olusoga?

'white feminism' describes me. I come from old money, I had a privileged upbringing. Im in my 20s, my parents grew up in africa with black nannys and black housekeepers, their families were paid 'white wages' and they benefitted from racism.
Me? I grew up with primogeniture hanging over my female body: no matter how much I rebelled against feminine clothing or participated in male orientated sports, everyone in my family knew I was female. I would never inherit the estate, and to be accepted by my family I would never talk about how I was touched by older members of the family.
The privilege of being well off and white? Its not all roses, im not disabled or coloured, does that mean that being female hasnt negatively influenced my life?

I d was talking about your link in the OP, op. And this pic which seems a really odd thing to post on here after all that's been said.

I thought I'd read the thread pretty much but maybe have missed some!

Certainly your OP link was clickbait and the pic just now is just weird, I don't know who posted that.

Most of what has been post on this thread as pics or links, asking for reaction.

Has been either clickbait or just random and from who knows what and what's the context.

Isn't there anything a bit more heavy duty, preferably UK based, to get our teeth into?

I mean I can post a random screenshot saying anything really (internet has all the opinions in the world!) and say discuss.

I also feel that after the v lengthy conversation about an awful lot of different aspects, to post that is a bit... Lacking in genuine engagement with this thread as a conversation iyswim.

That list says 'people who identify with whiteness'

I am well aware that how light or dark you are is a big thing in many many countries, and has caused people to be separated out, classified etc.

That doesn't seem to be about that though.

What does identify with whiteness mean?

Does it mean that for those who view being white as a big part of their identity, a really important thing about who they are, the list applies? Rather than anyone who is white but doesn't have it as a key thing in their sense of self iyswim

It's very unclear.

[quote ATieLikeRichardGere]How does this list make the white peoples feel?

theculturecraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_mq5hqu45lk1s948iuo1_1280.jpg[/quote]
The only positive white identity in this list is the one that wants to eradicate whiteness.

Reminds me of an interview with a white supremacist who said he loved this sort of thing, as it basically prepared people to accept his message.

I think the issue was that Labour was no longer a safe haven for Jews so many felt compelled to vote for the Tories. I'm over that whole discussion as it was quite 'tribal' suffice that there's really no room for the middle ground.

No worries@VladmirsPoutine
I'll have to look up her article.

Sorry @Tealightsandd don't know why my phone isn't @' you properly!

I genuinely know a black Jewish disabled woman. She's faced so much discrimination and prejudice in her life. It's shameful.

@ allTealightsandd Got the name now - twas Hadley Freeman!

Who's asking for equivalent inaction? I'm most definitely not. I'm just pointing out an issue with talking about the notion of white privilege (that it often ignores the very unprivileged experiences of Jewish people).

@ATieLikeRichardGere my thoughts on that list is that it uses language which has historical cultural relevance in the USA and not the UK.

My other key thought is that like much of the discourse in the USA it is very reductive rather than intersectional.
A person and their place in society is based on far more than their whiteness or otherwise.
Genuine intersection would look at all the protected characteristics, socio economic status and issues like being a care leaver.
To provide a rounded and nuanced picture of the challenges for any individual or small groups of individuals.

Reflecting on the idea of white oriented action I am doubtful that most people in the UK any way consciously have an action oriented white identity.

In part because being in a significant majority situation means that there is little need to consider part of your life most people around you also share.

What I am trying to say is that there is a difference between noticing other people are black or Asian and noticing you are white.
If you are in the majority of the ethnicity you are more likely to notice others ethnicity and not your own.

The UK is also very different to the USA in part because there has never been a significant and prolonged effort by white peoples to hold power over other racial groups living in the country using extreme violence at times to achieve this.

Certainly those with any power have always been reluctant to share it and used violence to help achieve this which can be seen in racism, sexism and classism and the political struggles against these.

However an entire political and legal structure was not created to keep one racial identity under the control of another.

I don't doubt there is structural racism ( I would include anti semitism which in the UK, which has existed for centuries) just as there is structural sexism and classism.

But none of these things are mutually exclusive and no one is claiming they should be.

If a lot of antisemitism is happening then we should try to stop it - not demand equivalent inaction over other forms of racism.

@ allTealightsandd "No other minority (would be treated this way)" not sure if it was Baddiel or that Guardian journo who coined this phrase. I remember it from around the general election.

Many (but not all) Jewish people are white. They experience huge amounts of racism - and their experiences are repeatedly dismissed and denied (as has been seen on various MN threads including a recent zoom chat with David Baddiel). Last weekend, there was an anti lockdown march in London (a city with a large Jewish population). Led by far right anti semitic figures including David Icke, with marchers wearing yellow stars. A poster on another thread pointed out that if these people had been wearing KKK robes, they would've been arrested (and rightly so). Many (but not all) Jewish people are white. There was no white privilege for Jewish people last weekend (or over centuries of racism and persecution).

I just missed the evidence for female structural problems

So none of this makes me react against the idea of intersectionality because I don’t think the idea is meant to be a hierarchy or an oppression olympics. People just misuse it that way.

But that is the issue. On pure theoretical grounds intersectionality is fine. But the use of it is often not. And that is why people are criticising it and challenging what they see as lazy thought terminating cliches. They don't have to think it's the one true path to social justice.

I agree that it shouldn't be oppression olympics or indeed a hierarchy of oppression. I think it's just some people struggle with the notion that multiple things can be true at once. A sort of cognitive dissonance.

How does this list make the white peoples feel?

theculturecraft.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/tumblr_mq5hqu45lk1s948iuo1_1280.jpg

On the whole UK society is not structurally racist against white people, it is structurally racist against non white people.

I agree that this doesn’t mean that people who are racialised as white never get poor treatment linked to that. I know some people push that idea but I think it’s a fairly extremist position and hard to defend. I did say previously in the thread that, not in the UK, I think my appearance, stereotypes about people who look like me, has been a factor in sexual harassment and violence I’ve experienced. So I can believe this happening to someone else. We all know that there are concepts like “white trash”. The existence of this issue doesn’t take away from racism linked to white supremacy. Actually if you trace it historically it appears to be part of the very same system. Now there is this idea that white people in the US are “dying of whiteness” blogs.bmj.com/medical-humanities/2020/12/04/book-review-dying-of-whiteness/

So none of this makes me react against the idea of intersectionality because I don’t think the idea is meant to be a hierarchy or an oppression olympics. People just misuse it that way.

And you could make a similar statement about not being white - there are situations where it can advantage you over others, even if in other ways it doesn't.

I think people feel this instinctively if they've lived it and it's one of the reasons they react against the whole hierarchy idea. If sometimes it inverts or rearranges, simple rankings won't reflect that.

That's something to fight for then. Raise awareness etc.

The original refuges were set up by women, because there was no provision. They fund raised etc to do it.

Over the years orgs could bid for govt funding etc and so there is an idea they are provided as a service by councils etc. That's not quite how it works.

Different people have different needs and risks. Those who saw a gap in what had been set up, worked to fund and set up specific services. They too could bid for govt funding etc.

A lot of these places as I understand it are still small things run by people who are often volunteers and they still fund raise.

The argument that if they are well supported by the community they serve they should change their remit and water down their focus is not right imo.

It's also an argument for opening existing shelters up to anyone. This is happening in Brighton etc, the grass roots orgs are being defunded as they don't cater to men. The contracts (money) are going to much larger orgs who often seem to have no experience in the sector.

The whole thing is in trouble.

I do think that specific services are important. A woman who has little grasp of English and is kept very much under control at home, has no idea about what the law is, how to access services etc has very specific needs and a lot of outreach will need to be done.

There is also the point that like it or not, plenty of people are racist. And if you have a service started by, run by, and provided for, people if a certain group who have in the past been overlooked etc. To open it up to all comes with the large risk that the group it was started for will not feel comfortable accessing it.

Grass roots services set up by people who are passionate and have seen an area that is being failed, usually that they are a part of etc, is good.

The root cause is defunding combined with an increase in DV.

Not that minority groups are being given extra stuff. Any stuff they have, has been fought for.

Of course I am sorry about the lack of support. Are you out now? Relationships board has loads of posters who know a lot and will try to help.