Throwing women's sport under the bus

As she hasn’t been back, I’m thinking it’s much more likely that you’re right than I am, 334.

Fair enough Sophocles, good luck with that.
Somehow don't think that anyone willing to hold onto a belief which is so obviously a lie will be open to a logical argument against it, but you never know. Hope it doesn't take some woman being killed or disabled to convince them.

Pulling the ladder up after herself in order to grab some virtue cookies. Always a classy move.

I think that point was wishful thinking, 334. And I disagree with it. But I’ve seen women players put this thinking forward in places other than here, and I want to understand how they’re arriving at that conclusion and why. And then I would like to use science and reason to hopefully demonstrate why it is wishful thinking, why it’s dangerous, and why it’s not “kind” at all. I think we’re heading in the same direction.

I oppose this move to open up women’s sports with ever fibre of my being, just so we’re clear on that part, though.

Benefit of the doubt? Anyone who thinks that the average female rugby player can tackle as hard as the average male player is indulging in wishful thinking. Jonny Wilkinson fits the height and weight profile for transwomen in female rugby, I wonder how many of the English Ladies would be able to get up off the ground after this tackle.

Last year's olympics would have been the first time any transwomen would have been able to compete under the testosterone rule. And, as is fairly obvious, that didn't happen. When it does the whole pack of lies will be seen by millions and many governing bodies will have to make changes.

Hang on though!!! Don’t you know they have been able to compete since 2004! We get told this every thread. We were told it last night.

The misinformation that keeps being perpetuated would be funny, if it wasn’t being believed by others.

The challenges that athletes face this Olympics are already extremely high. Females having to compete with males with those pubertal advantages is just a travesty.

There is no way that history will show this era is a positive light in decades to come.

It is always interesting to watch activists work down the list while never addressing the evidence presented by the studies.

Last year's olympics would have been the first time any transwomen would have been able to compete under the testosterone rule. And, as is fairly obvious, that didn't happen. When it does the whole pack of lies will be seen by millions and many governing bodies will have to make changes.

Yes, the next Olympics will be the first real test, but I think it'll snowball. If males start competing in women's sports, what's to stop hyper-competitive countries sending males to compete as standard?

I dunno why we even have to defend women’s sports

It’s ridiculous to even think that men and boys can play on women’s and girls teams

They can play on men and boys teams

Just completely bonkers

Like could I identify as a junior and play on a junior team

🙁

Exactly, NecessaryScene1.

The 'some people have a natural advantage - being male' argument could be used to justify scrapping separate sport categories for males and females. In fact, that's what logically follows.

I love number 10.

Answer: we don't know of any recently because nobody was looking. The last ones were rooted out with sex tests, which have since been deemed degrading, but not by women who ever competed against a male cheat

Last year's olympics would have been the first time any transwomen would have been able to compete under the testosterone rule. And, as is fairly obvious, that didn't happen. When it does the whole pack of lies will be seen by millions and many governing bodies will have to make changes.

Can we give willit the benefit of the doubt?

I am also a former player and have played mixed sex scratch games at rugby tournaments - for fun, not seriously. The men were expected to hold back.

And she’s saying things that women players are saying, and apparently genuinely believe.

I know we get a lot of drive by scoldings, and that causes tension, but Like any good ref, I want to see a good clean game

If they do have a physical advantage, it's the same as having longer legs or being taller. Some people are just naturally better athletes.

For the benefit of anyone who can't figure out the fallacy.

The advantage is not the same - the advantage is being male.

And we already have a place for male players. The problem is male players trying to get into the restricted classification for people without the male advantage.

If we did have separate classifications based on leg length or height, should we let tall people into the short people category? With the excuse "well, some tall people aren't better than short people"?

The male/female classification was created for a reason. That reason has not gone away. Letting transwomen play defeats the point.

Bollocks willithappen

I have taught some of the women's team, worked with their coaches, and even the strongest, fastest and most skilled of them are useless against a fairly good, regular playing boy.

Your 'experience' is utter nonsense. If you play mixed sex rugby under aegis of an RFU registered team it had better be a game of touch. Or even now all insurances and even coach registration will be void!

I don't even need my years of teaching physiology to know any of that!

Such claptrap cannot go unchallenged. Which is why many of us continue to provide the RFU with reminders. They are playing a very dangerous game... or rather they are trying to force women to.

I've been dragged into this argument after someone showed me a 'neutral' video which was heavily TWAW:

We were wondering which arguments they would use to justify the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports. It turns out it was number 3. The usual arguments I've seen are:

1. There are so few transwomen in women's sports that it won't make any difference.

2. When transwomen take hormone therapy, they lose any physical advantage.

3. If they do have a physical advantage, it's the same as having longer legs or being taller. Some people are just naturally better athletes.

4. Not allowing transwomen to compete against women is the same as racism.

5. You're not interested in sports, so why should you care?

6. If you think women are physically weaker than men then you're a sexist and can't call yourself a feminist (I've honestly seen this argument on Twitter, from posters like Hettyspoon).

7. Where are the stats that show transwomen have an unfair advantage?

8. Not allowing transwomen to compete against women means banning them from sports, which is an infringement of their human rights.

9. Being trans is no different to having a DSD.

10. There have been no trans Olympians yet, and if transwomen are at such an advantage, surely there would be.

Come down to NZ and play against the Māori and Pacific lads, willithappen. What a joke!

Very interested to hear your response to @Sophoclesthefox’s questions.

A lot of the girls on my team can tackle the guys harder than any other guy could

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣.
Aye right. LOL

If you’re still on the thread, @willithappen, I’d like to hear a bit more.

I’m a former player, and still have a lot of my former team mates on my Facebook, though I’m not still actively in contact with some of them as our lives have gone in different directions. One of my former playing friends feels as you do, and I am at a loss as to why, and maybe you can help me understand where she’s coming from (I can’t ask her directly, as I have a feeling this relates to a trans family member, and we’re not close enough for me to feel comfortable kicking the hornets nest and upsetting her as she is quite fragile).

When you’re thinking about a transwoman player, what are you visualising? Someone quite feminine? Slightly built?

What is it that you think is positive for women’s rugby that transwomen can bring as a whole, not just for themselves? I’ve heard people refer to increasing inclusion and diversity, but in my experience, women’s rugby teams are already and have for many years been very inclusive of diverse sexualities, backgrounds etc. In fact, it’s always struck me that the men’s game has a lot to learn about this, with its problems with homophobia and endorsing domestic abusers. Don’t you think this is where the work needs to happen?

Would you consider that any of your fellow players objecting would be doing so on legitimate grounds that you would respect, or do you think it can only be out of bigotry?

Why do single sex sports exist, and what is it about someone’s gender identity that makes this not matter, in your view?

Am really interested in this. Thanks, if you feel like answering.

Transwomen won’t play in men’s teams because they would get thrashed and they wouldn’t like that - they would consider it unfair that the men have a testosterone advantage over them - so they would rather play with women so they can thrash them instead. Sounds much fairer don’t you think 🙄😩
This world is turning delusional- honestly it’s not a bad thing I’m getting on in years and won’t be here too much longer. I couldn’t stand being a young girl or woman competing in sport now and facing this threat every time I turned up for a comp. women ought to protest and refuse to participate when transwomen are allowed to enter.

Also a bit crazy I can't come in and give my personal experience/opinion without everyone telling me I'm wrong

You’re not wrong about your own experience. You’re wrong in thinking you’re own experience should be enough to form a policy that encompasses the opinions of all the other women and girls who think differently.

You have had no issues. Great! That’s great for you, although if you were to play full contact rugby against males for long enough it would only be a matter of time before something went wrong.

But this is about making it fair and safe for everyone. You saying “I’ve never had an issue” is the same as “my granny smoked 40 ciggies a day and lived to 102”.

I will bet that when you played against the men, they held back.

You might think they didn’t but I’ll bet they didn’t go as hard in on you as if it had been all male.

I’m not saying they will have been kittens but they will have had restraint.

They won’t have gone in as hard on the women.

Decent men just wouldn’t.

(And I have played mixed sports - though not rugby)

Thankfully it's being banned slowly but surely.

The differences - I am 9 stone, I can play and tackle and women almost double my weight on the other team

Not sure what point you are trying to prove here. You do know, as per the ‘science’ you seem to not consider credible, that a male will most likely do much better than that. Consistently. And the power differential when a male who has greater speed tackling you with greater power, means greater chance that the one tackle that does lay you flat may do just that little more harm that causes permanent damage.

It is absolutely fine for you to agree to play with that risk. It is not ok for you to handwave away the risk on behalf of my daughter and her mates. Or any other woman.

I would be interested though why you discount the science that was presented at World Rugby though. In the face of the findings from the Swansea university into female brain damage due to rugby and the many players who are claiming early dementia even amongst the male teams.

It is so easy to attribute the intentions of people who disagree as being ‘right wing’ or ‘white supremacists’ or any number of political views that are considered hateful

in Britain the equivalent response is " You're a Tory" .

My husband is a man, and was a Rugby player. He's smaller than average for British men (12st, 5ft8... So comparable to a lot of women. But completely different body structure). He was once seriously injured in a game with a player from a Pacific nation (amateur Rugby, not international!). It was the size difference that did it. The other player was a lot bigger than him.
And that's between men.