Interesting real life stats on boys/girls sports

I read recently that pregnancy puts a woman's body into marathon mode with everything operating at peak demand, and of course it goes on for months at a time, usually while the individual holds down a full-time job or is toddler-wrangling, or both!

Yes I've read that!

It's supposed to be good to carry baby in slings and keep walking to maintain the fitness and strength.

Yes swim club its very good for seeing boy/girl differences.

I attended a single sex girls school and there were plenty of competetive sporty girls

It is interesting to note the uptake of girls doing maths, physics and other sciences is much higher in single sex schools too.

I went to an all girls school until I was 12. I was very much one of the sporty, science ones, and not interested in arts or humanities at all.

I moved to a mixed sex comp, and the difference was huge and obvious. Boys did maths, woodwork and pe, girls did home ec, typing, and art. I was the only girl in several classes.

Even now, my dd has just finished GCSE PE, where she was the only girl in her class. However she found she was much more able than nearly everyone, as her focus wasn’t just “football”, and as a national athlete she had a much better grasp of the science and thinking behind sport. Plus she was physically better than them in all of the conditioning tests - footballers aren’t so good at chin ups....

www.fionaoutdoors.co.uk/2019/07/women-leading-the-way-in-ultra-distance-running-races.html

I've always thought nature and nurture work together in all contexts.

Not sure why it has to be one or the other?

A child is born and then it's nurtured.

I don't deny the massive influence of society of course not (none of mine were sexed in utero so no pre natal stereotyping). One of my boys is more cuddly than the others and he went everywhere with his baby doll as a toddler (though he is a teen now and still gentle but not at all "feminine"). My DD was still different. Hard to explain, but more tuned in.

As I say it makes sense to me on a societal and biological level that males and females as classes have different roles and that is fostered by our hormones etc in order to best facilitate survival of the species. This is echoed in other mammals. Again I am talking about a sex class level not an individual level. Do male penguins get treated differently as infants from female penguins, so as to adopt the particular roles they do in adulthood? Do female chimpanzee babies get called cute and pretty by other chimps, whereas the baby boy chimps are strong or handsome? I don't know. Yet they still develop dimorphic behaviour on average. I find it interesting.

I guess this is the nature V nurture question. Isn't it always a bit of both? The middle road. It's clearly not a great idea to force gendered toys and roles on kids, but also harmful to hide anything not gender neutral or force traditionally opposite gender toy or activities where there is clearly no interest. We need to get away from expectations that one set of objects and activities is unacceptable or undesirable for one sex. That is where gender gets dismantled. Accepting that for individuals there is overlap.

The thing with physical strength and sporting prowess is, it's competitive, so it isn't the weaker, slower trans girls and women in the overlap who just want to participate. It is the actively sporty hardened trans athletes who want to win.

@avacallanach
Forgot to say that I don't think it is incompatible with GC feminism to think there are also biological differences between the sexes that change our behaviour. We know that certain hormones released after birth lead to bonds being formed with babies for example. You can still consider yourself GC but recognize that we are all animals! However, most gender norms do not seem to have any biological basis - which we can see in the way they have changed over time and in different locations.

This is also pertinent:

"Sophie" (actually Edward) is offered comfort toys and not...

Interestingly the one who enjoyed tv and films from early on was the one who followed their gender roles more closely.

This is a really important point.

I was waiting for someone to raise stamina and endurance but as nobody has, I will. Pelves aren't the key thing, I think. Women have an advantage in running because the upper body is less broad and muscular and the legs don't have as much to carry, proportionately. Swimming sees a huge male advantage with those arms and shoulders and the water takes the weight. Men with their long bones and big muscles grown on testosterone will always have the edge in competitions that demand short, explosive bursts of effort. High drama, lots of Olympic events fit here. Wonder why? 🤔

Where women start overhauling men is in the ultra-long endurance events that take place on venues like remote hillsides and in the dark because they take 12+ hours. Less featured in the Olympics. 🙄

I read recently that pregnancy puts a woman's body into marathon mode with everything operating at peak demand, and of course it goes on for months at a time, usually while the individual holds down a full-time job or is toddler-wrangling, or both! Of course we're best at ultra long-haul super endurance events because our bodies have to work that way to sustain the race.

I suspect that school sports are designed to showcase boys' physiological strengths and downplay girls'. Likewise most high profile sporting events and competitions.

No surprises, really.

@avacallanach I think it is very difficult to unpick what is nature and what is nurture. My ds was very into playing with cuddly toys and dressing them up when he was younger whereas his female twin was not at all - I can't remember her ever playing with dolls. I also have an older ds who is totally different to his brother. That is why I think the only coherent message is "dress however you like, do whatever you please but sex matters - and this applies to sport too".

Oh gosh mine too blue. One very tiny and skinny; Dh fretted over him being bullied in the playground and was forever trying to encourage him to be brave. Another rather on the large side, and I kept having to tell mum to stop calling him a bruiser. A girl wouldn't have been called that.

I've actually wondered if I've seen all the gender shit a bit more as a result of having boys; I was one of two girls and a gender non conforming mother so had never seen the other side of the coin.

It was easier to be non conforming as a girl growing up. Less so as a boy, and still more taboo.

Sorry missing the post of the thread but:

@InvisibleDragon - thank you for that quote - it hit me right in the chest. I have ordered the book. Thank you.

Sexual dimorphism isn't just dimorphism of secondary sex characteristics at puberty. We are very dimorphic, evolution has made the sexes diverge significantly. It is genetic specialisation for our reproductive roles but also survival as a community, not just as an individuals. People who ming on about sex as a spectrum don't understand that we are sexually dimorphic BECAUSE of the binary. The binary drives us in different directions. That doesn't start at puberty. It starts at conception, possibly before since sperm are either x or y and I read somewhere that certain conditions (famine etc) can slightly favour one or the other.

Really interesting discussion, and echos many of the concerns I’ve had for a while.

Yes, I’m fully supportive of individuals wanting to live as their true selves.

But my concern is with women (and girls) / females as a class and the impact each of these decisions has on us as a class.

Interesting post OP - an extra dimension for me (as a sporty mum who was keen to encourage my daughters), is the effect of embarrassing adolescence on teenage girls in mixed sex schools. Some girls report not wanting the boys to see them get sweaty and be competetive and to feeling awkward in skimpy sports gear. I attended a single sex girls school and there were plenty of competetive sporty girls. Of course this doesnt preclude any natural physical advantage that boys might have but it does play a part in how many girls carry on being sporty after puberty.

.So despite me being determined that gender was entirely imposed and buying my kids a range of toys, from babyhood my children followed different pathways that were sex predictable.

Mine didn’t. So whose anecdote is more valid?

As @WarriorN says, gender influences start very early, long before children are able to express a preference themselves.

It even started in utero for me. If the baby was kicking it was either boys are so active, he’s a little footballer, or girls always gives their mum a hard time. Or if the baby was quiet, it was a “lazy boy”, or girls are so good until they hit teenage years..

Presents at birth- pink, soft toys, jewellery for girls. Blue, cars, balls for boys.

Two of mine are the same sex. One is nurturing, likes dolls, prams, quiet play, books. The other likes trains, climbing trees, sport. Interestingly the one who enjoyed tv and films from early on was the one who followed their gender roles more closely.

Watch this link- socialisation into gender roles starts early, and happens even when people don’t think they are..

m.youtube.com/watch?v=nWu44AqF0iI

Another point is that our general visual culture on TV and in books is very "hetero." Youngsters who are same sex attracted from a young age don't see themselves reflected a great deal in society.

There must be some sex linked differences as schools like mine are very boy heavy. We are a mix of moderate learning difficulties and autism. An OT once said she always seems to be supporting boys with handwriting in sen and mainstream schools.

like us mums of boys would give them more freedom or something

There's been studies that this is the case. Ironically in saw it explored in a bbc program with Alice Roberts and Michael Mosely; Alice was firmly saying and showing that there was no 'brain' difference and it was all how people treated the baby/ toddler if they thought they were male or female...(she clearly did a reverse ferret soon after.)

Mums of boys were shown to allow them to explore independently a bit further than mums of girls over a high ramp.

Strangers treated babies dressed in blue differently to babies dressed in pink.