Interesting real life stats on boys/girls sports

I've never understood the extremes 'nature v nurture' positions (on anything) when clearly it's a mixture of both.

It’s humbling to realise humanity is still at the mercy of nature.

It’s best not to lie to ourselves or other people about this.

I take on board some feminist issues.
But draw a line at girls would have the same strength as boys, if only they were brought up the same, treated the same, etc etc. That has always been patently untrue

I’m a feminist, and very much of the opinion that gender stereotyping is mainly societal.

However I don’t think anyone has said that there aren’t physical difference. Men and boys are stronger, have different centres of gravity, different muscle composition.

Like sex, those physical differences are unchangeable. Which is why many feminists are GC, and think tranwomen should not compete in womens sports.

The “differences” I refer to are the ones that can be changed. Men can make good nurses or carers, women can be good at maths and be physicists. Women can play football, men can like ballet and musicals without being gay.

The “pink brain, blue brain” thinking. Liking sparkles does not make you a girl etc. Those likes and dislikes are formed by society and can be challenged and changed. Physicality can not.

I take on board some feminist issues.
But draw a line at girls would have the same strength as boys, if only they were brought up the same, treated the same, etc etc. That has always been patently untrue.
But feminists don't think girls are the same as boys!

mobile.twitter.com/boysvswomen/status/1388164248019275777

14 year old boys beating Women's High Jump World Record.
No difference at all between the sexes?

I take on board some feminist issues.
But draw a line at girls would have the same strength as boys, if only they were brought up the same, treated the same, etc etc. That has always been patently untrue.

e UK where we have cultural beliefs in natural talents compared to other cultures which put more focus on / trust in working to develop skills.

Can you tell me more about this? Any links? I get very fed up with the fatalistic view about talent here, but I haven’t read anything about it.

The critical thing IMO is to then encourage children to practise the other skills as they develop them rather than reinforcing those early differences

Also to encourage and nurture what they are good at or interested in.

My dd’s school ran after school ballet classes. Predictably small girls in pink frilly shit- seriously is everyone clueless about ballet, it’s fucking hard work! There were about 3 boys that wanted to join, but parents wouldn’t sign the consent as it was a “girl” activity.

We still haven’t moved on from Billy Elliot. If boys dance it’s street or breakdance when they’re older, boys in ballet is still a rarity. Shame when it is actually a really good base for football or any sport they move on to.

I find this type of sport - where girls and boys interact daily and only separate for competition a good way to allow trans kids to feel welcomed but still prevent trans boys unfairly taking medals from girls.

However, nobody showers or changes communally on a ski team (maybe some do, but not where we live), so that isn't an issue with this sport.

Oh yes 100% Just but there can be a tendency for children to be stuck in what they develop first at, particularly in the UK where we have cultural beliefs in natural talents compared to other cultures which put more focus on / trust in working to develop skills.

The critical thing IMO is to then encourage children to practise the other skills as they develop them rather than reinforcing those early differences

you do have to be careful, though, not to oppress a child's natural inclination just because it does not conform to one's beliefs about such things.

Watched a reality TV programme a couple of years ago in which the mother of a young boy decided she was going to bring him up gender neutral. so he had long hair and was given typical 'girl toys' and discouraged from being his more natural active self. It was very uncomfortable to watch.

What she was actually doing was imposing opposite sex gender expectations on him in a bid to prove that boys and girls were the same, or that as a boy he could be soft and nurturing, rather than rough and tumble.

So much of this is about how much bell curves overlap between boys and girls at different ages. Growing up I genuinely believed that any differences were entirely due to nurture, and that if we addressed socialisation there'd be no difference in the two bell curves. Now I realise it's not as simple as that.

Possibly socialisation is also related to differing development timelines. At population level boys tend to develop gross motor skills before girls, and fine minor skills after girls which may explain play preferences as children gravitate to things they are better at. The critical thing IMO is to then encourage children to practise the other skills as they develop them rather than reinforcing those early differences.

www.gbrathletics.com/uk/wu13.htm
www.gbrathletics.com/uk/mu13.htm
Might find these interesting too.

www.englandathletics.org/athletics-and-running/england-competitions/national-championships/england-athletics-championship-records/#Table9

This link contains among others the records of both under 15 boys and girls in outdoor and indoor events. Again the difference is striking.

But how can you tell that the differences aren't even subtly imposed by society

The muscularity of the trans child was a give away...... not that girls cannot be muscular or toned. Of course, humans all have different body shapes and builds.

If you had been there and witnessed the difference between obviously athletic girls and the trans child you would understand. ( the child was wearing clothing which exposed the arms). I found it very interesting how obvious the physical differences were, even at such a young age.

Ive also always found research on cosleeping with boys v girls has positive impact on boys at age 5 at school, interpersonal relationships, but makes no difference to girls.

I started a thread on more real life sex stats in sport here, really very pertinent ones: (and from the US.)

Teen girls have double concussion risk of boys www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4230537-teen-girls-have-double-concussion-risk-of-boys

It's interesting that women make different milk for male or female babies.

In almost every mammal there are dedicated roles for male and female

Yes, but until sexual maturity there’s no noticeable difference in behaviour. They all playfight, practice hunting, and sleep in the sun. The girls don’t segregate off and sit round watching the boys play games. Girl mammals don’t prefer pink.

Sexual behaviour is different. But gender is a social construct- girls and boys have different “innate” likes according to the society they are brought up in. Humans dictate that girls like pink and drawing, not biology...

That doesn't fit with us as mammals with dependent young for an extended period though moth.

In almost every mammal there are dedicated roles for male and female. Unless you believe that mummy and daddy lion look at the baby lions and say "this one has a vulval opening, isn't she pretty, and oh look, this one has a penis what a big strong boy" and treat them differently, they still grow up and the male lions still go off alone and the female lions still gather in a pride and do most of the hunting and all the nurturing, and if a new male takes over the pride he will still kill any cubs that aren't his.

Obviously as I said before, nurture reinforces gender roles and stereotypes, and there are significant differences at individual level. But at population level, if women (well, at least one of the sexes) weren't biologically primed to feed and nurture their babies it would be a disaster for the species. We'd have to have a fish model where you have thousands of babies that you don't look after and a few survive to adulthood.

And aren't there studies that show boy/ girl brains are the same, but by society reinforcing certain patterns etc, brains end up being moulded? The language we use has an effect from the minute they're born.

But how can you tell that the differences aren't even subtly imposed by society? My dc got the idea about girls' and boys' toys from adverts and other kids at nursery. Ds believed that men cook and iron and women put the washing on until he went to school. He has never run around much or been into football. Neither kid is noisy, because I've never allowed it in the house. Both wiry and flexible. Dd much, much more given to the outdoors. Ds more stamina.

It doesn't count, cos it's anecdata, but up until school age and possibly a bit later, I could have told you my dc were opposite sex and you wouldn't have questioned it.

Of course you can't but neither should you discount observable differences between the sexes at a very young age. If you had told me before that boys were different, I would have pooh poohed it and said it must be nurture driven. However, that was not the case with my two and I don't believe it was merely a difference in personality

I agree with you. I have a daughter and two sons, and now a granddaughter, and even given differences in personality the differences were there.

Boys are usually encouraged to run around, play football etc. Even if girls are encouraged to be physically active it’s one ballet or gymnastics class a week, which won’t help with running fitness, so the difference between them and boys who are running around everyday playing football will be huge

I'm not convinced it is just down to encouragement to be physical. My granddaughter is very physical and adventurous and is encouraged to be so. she also loves climbing, and loves the monkey bars in the park. she will spend hours practising. She is six.

A few months ago I saw a young trans child in the park, on the same set of monkey bars as my grandduaghter. the child was around the same age; but the obvious difference in muscularity and physicality was undeniable in comparison. Even the gait.

There have been quite a lot of studies suggesting PP boys are stronger/fitter/faster than PP girls (and a few that suggests they aren’t). I think the difference that gets quoted is not more than 10%. I think pp boys are also typically slightly heavier and have slightly higher calorie needs. I presume that it would be down to higher testosterone in the womb and in babyhood.