Could you stay married to a TRA?

Yes, sorry forgot to say I hope she’s all right and has support around her.

What a horrible situation sapphos. It must take every fibre of your being to not say “I told you so”. But maybe, just maybe this other poor woman’s troubles might be a chink of light for your marriage.

In your shoes, I’d stay quite quiet and let it all unfold.

That poor woman and your poor wife. Really not the nicest way to have to realise the dark side of this activism. Hope your DWs friend is ok.

Don't use this as an opportunity to say told you so even s bit. Steer clear of the whole politics.

Talk to and comfort your wife.
And obviously encourage her to support her friend irl is call her meet up with her. Do you know the friend? If she's suicidal then it's emergency time. Is the friend with anyone to support her?

Sorry- point taken

In my opinion op, the priority is for you and your wife to draw up some ground rules about your children. Good luck.

Like you are capable of considering more than one issue at once, I hope I'm capable of recognizing that relatively unimportant things are often important for what they represent and stand for.

In terms of the toilet debate my gut feel is that public toilets are fairly low down the list of priorities... but then again I can see unisex toilets only in a secondary school as being a massive issue for many many girls.

Let's not derail a support thread into debating views on toilets.

Shizuku you always ask us to defend/ explain our views. Which we do from our sometimes very personal experiences.

I think it would be good if you could return the favour.

Why don't you think men will utilise or exploit the opening up of facilities etc to them if they can? Whether for convenience or other reasons?

That's the main one. I'd be genuinely grateful for an answer because my life experience tells me they definitely will.

Who polices it?
Listen to yourself!

Women have been accepting of the occasional TW in bogs. It's all very polite. Bit of the usual eye contact between women that I've learnt men don't even notice and are oblivious to. We learn to be subtle. Just yep I've seen that to. Recognition that ok no problem but we all have noticed.

Before if a man was in there, I mean an obviously male person who presented male, if there was bouncers/ staff etc you could get them removed. Or enough women to feel ok saying go away (risky).

Or if there was behaviour that was not right but not illegal. Hanging around. Striking up conversations. Staring etc. You could get them gone.

Now it's don't say anything and it might be illegal to do so. Non illegal but creepy behaviour, what can you do? Wait until a crime is committed? I mean FFS.

We have single sex spaces for a lot of reasons. Some obvious some harder to articulate.

And of course if a woman says that person is being creepy. It's always been. Are you imagining it? Over reacting? He's not done anything illegal etc etc

Enrages.

That was before the new ways. Now there is gents (urinals and a cubicle I'm told). The women's is now all gender. And the accessible is as well and always was.

So as usual with this the people who don't have the long queues/ pregnancy/ bladder weakness due to age etc have 3 options one of them single sex. The ones who always have the massive queues have no single sex provision.

That enraged me tbh.

How are you planning to police that

It would work in exactly the same way as it does with all men (including many transwomen) who currently do not use women’s facilities, they abide by the social contract of single sex spaces. It is self-policing. The problem only arises if people try to impose a new social contract, which is what some trans activists are trying to do now.

When I was heavily pregnant I needed the toilet on the tube station after my commute.

I got in the queue and 2 women joined, one of them also pregnant.

We waited for ages then I knocked. Nothing.

I was going to pre myself! We were all doing wee wee dance like toddlers. After maybe 10 mins door opened. Bloke came out and gave that smirk that I've seen before when men have got one over on women. Christ it stank. Men's were a 3 min walk away.

Also IME many men feel no qualms about using stuff if there's not essentially a massive keep out sign.

In both my current work and previous work the men used the disabled toilet when they wanted a shit. I never used them as they had a sign on the door with a wheelchair and there were other toilets.

On the bogs thing

Yes it sounds trivial which is why when eg prisons is the subject it gets turned back to bogs

Few points

It's not even handed. Loads of restaurants etc who had both have turned one unisex and they get extra space etc. I've been in a couple of places where this was done and in one there was an apologetic man and in the other there was a man who glared at me when I came out. Both were old style cubicles in a room with gaps. This sign was up in one.

Sorry for the detail! But my answer to OP's question would be no. I have women friends, a sister and daughters to bond and socialise with but in my intimate relationship I'm heterosexual, so if my husband decided he was no longer a man it would not be a relationship in which I could remain. Which doesn't mean I'd hate him or cut him out of my life, just that it wouldn't be what I signed up to. It would be like forced conversion to lesbianism and no forced conversion is ever right.

There's a reason lone fathers are apt to lurk outside the Ladies' and ask a woman to escort their daughter in with her. And there's a reason mother's bring their little boys into the Ladies' with them even when they get a bit too old for it. Predatory men exist and you don't know when they're about as they don't wear labels.

This is why female toilets, should exclude all males including those who identify as TW and 'caught short'.

I think agreeing to not indoctrinate your children one way or the other is absolutely key, and totally possible.

I was brought up without any religious indoctrination and turned out strongly atheist. It was not until I was well into my twenties that I found out that my mother was Christian and my father was agnostic, wavering towards Christian. I was incredibly shocked, and at first disappointed, but as I have grown older I think it was a very thoughtful way to bring us up.

It absolutely is not theoretical! Honestly how can people still be saying this?? It’s not! It’s directly affecting women now, today, in law and legislation, in social settings and at work, as well as children in schools and young people at university, and is only going to get much, much worse if push back isn’t strong enough. Calling it theoretical is really dangerous, dismissive and entirely incorrect.

@SapphosRock I’m going to leave this thread now as I would hate to get into too much discussion of the wider issues and ramifications. But I do wish you strength. I absolutely could not stay in a relationship like yours and I’m not sure I should wish you luck in doing so. But I do hope you manage to figure out what’s right for you and the best way to handle this on behalf of your children.

Oddly, I never mind a male attendant in the Ladies'. I know why he's there, he's not hanging around with evil intent and he's keeping it nice and fresh for us. I don't mind a transwoman who's presenting as female slipping in and using the space the way women do: for a wee etc, a hand-wash, a make-up and hair check, an outfit repair, a giggle with a friend, a confidential chat or a private weep. Most of all I don't mind someone slipping in to avoid a male sex pest or angry violent stranger. No issue at all with any of that.

My issue is the conversion to unisex status which prevents all of us - women and transwoman - having our peace and privacy for all the above activities more or less assured.

Yes, of course a violent or predatory man could barge in to the Ladies', but he'd be challenged and help could be sought. If the toilet is officially unisex, he has a right to be there even if he's pursuing a reluctant acquaintance or unsuspecting stranger or a child. He'll get further and do more damage. If transwomen are nervous of using the Gents', how does it help to invite all of the gents in?!

There's a reason lone fathers are apt to lurk outside the Ladies' and ask a woman to escort their daughter in with her. And there's a reason mother's bring their little boys into the Ladies' with them even when they get a bit too old for it. Predatory men exist and you don't know when they're about as they don't wear labels.

Unisex toilets just make everyone equally unsafe and remove a refuge many of us value highly and have needed badly at some point.

Can you just not talk about it between you, and agree a strict 'some people believe' framing from both of you to the children?

It sounds as if you would use preferred pronouns, which may be what she was worried about re her friends. Other than that, much of the argument you're describing is in fact theoretical. I would try just to shelve it. I feel very strongly on this subject BTW.

In think this shows that despite having a viewpoint that is clearly tolerant of TW, Saphos is having huge relationship problems over this