Help, DS feels like a girl, confused

That's pretty rude, Tiggeri. Why wouldn't she?

Why would a concerned parent choose the feminist board to ask this

Because her DS is confused about gender roles & stereotypes?

She may have asked other people, both online & IRL, and want a range of ideas and opinions. It's good to hear lots of different views when you're facing something difficult.

Good luck, OP - let's hope it's your DS just thinking about the difficult bits of growing up. Maybe he can be inspired to challenge & change the aspects of masculinity which he's anxious about or feels disconnected from.

Michael Conroy is ace on this stuff: his "Manbox" work is worth seeking out.

Once upon a time, I was a teenager in a LGBT/gay-straight alliance, and the conversation turned to how understanding we would be if our future children turned out to be under the umbrella. One club member, who wanted to impress the trans member, by boasting of how accepting he would be if a child said they were transgender.

Our trans member hit the roof with him. They outlined the financial and physical impact of the procedures they were going to get to treat their dysphoria and told him that they wished that they had been able to treat their body dysphoria far less invasively. Then they said that if they ever had a child who experienced that distress themselves, the first thing they would do would be to work to see if it could be treated through therapy instead.

That's what I thought of when I read the OP.

My son went through this. He told me at the age of 15, but said he had been having the feelings since about 10/11 years old. We went to GIDS and were very lucky to have a thoughtful therapist who didn’t rush any decisions.

Earlier this year he told me that he was now happy to be a boy (man I suppose, he’s 19!), I felt such a weight off my shoulders that he is now happy to be a gay male with long hair! I wish I could tell you I had a magic solution, but I think it was just time and ‘life’ happening. He took a year out of university because of Covid and went to work full time. He went out into the real world and realised he could fit into it just the way he is.

I would recommend talking first to your son (as you already have) and second to the GP. There will be counselling and support available for him to help him work things out.

A 12 year old boy who says in conversation with his older sister that he's not sure he feels like a boy does not need to be taken to the GP.

There is no medical or psychological 'problem' in such a 12 year old child indicated by his comments which requires fixing or pathologising by GPs or counsellors.

This is harmful advice which ignores all child development knowledge and so best ignored.

We went through this and it was a complete nightmare as my son was unable to express why he thought he wasn’t a boy. All the counsellors at school & CAMHS just told him he was a girl trapped in the wrong body. Dd 18 months younger than him was v influential & still believes he’s a girl trapped in a man’s body,

No good news I’m afraid. I’m in support groups but to be honest I’m just waiting for him to finish university & then cutting all ties with him. I can’t cope with this & don’t need to.

DD says I'm non-binary then. I feel a bit old to be non-binary. I thought I was just a normal feminist.

M.K. Fain's article is really worth reading for those who have daughters claiming/promoting a non binary identity:

'Non-Binary Is the New “Not Like Other Girls,” and it’s Deeply Rooted in Misogyny'
(extract)
Now, one year later, all three of them identify as “non-binary” — no longer a woman.

According to the Human Rights Campaign, non-binary means:

An adjective describing a person who does not identify exclusively as a man or a woman. Non-binary people may identify as being both a man and a woman, somewhere in between, or as falling completely outside these categories.

So how did three feminist women who were bravely defying gender norms and tackling the male violence in their lives suddenly decide they are non-women?

Non-binary identities are on the rise. In the UK, the number of non-binary students appears to have doubled between 2017 and 2018. With two-thirds of young people who identify as trans being female, it’s likely that most of the growth in non-binary identities has come from young women. While there is a dearth of research in this area, my experience is not unique. To feminists, this should not come as a surprise.

A 2018 article in Teen Vogue outlined the experience of one non-binary woman:

I reject the whole concept of gender. Growing up, I never felt people were wrong when they called me a woman, but it felt like a label imposed on me rather than one that fit. Then, in college, I learned about non-binary identity, and that did fit. Sure, I have likes and dislikes that some might label “feminine” or “masculine,” but I don’t feel any need to label them that way. The gender binary has made me feel pigeonholed, and I don’t want to identify with it.

Feminists have long rejected the concept of gender, defining it as oppressive sex-role stereotyping and maintaining the goal of abolishing the gender caste system. Rather than rejecting gender, the writer in Teen Vogue seems to have bought into it entirely, believing that she must not be a woman simply because she does not fully meet the expectations of womanhood. Does she think her experience of being falsely categorized by gender is unique? Is she “not like other girls”? (continues)

4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

4w.pub/non-binary-is-the-new-not-like-other-girls-and-its-deeply-rooted-in-misogyny/

I think you have a problem with your DD. Its not her place to convince her brother of anything, or to try to 'educate' him. She shouldn't be trying to do something thats your responsibility. I don't think that what she is doing is appropriate.

I think I'd want to talk to both of them about it as a separate issue, and also explain to them that its normal to feel some confusion and want to experiment when you are a teenager. But its important you do that safely.

There is a series of excellent podcasts by therapists Stella O'Malley and Sasha Ayad

12 Identity vs Role Confusion in Adolescence
"The psychologist Erik Erickson’s theory of psychosocial development makes some essential observations about the period of adolescence and identifies the questions at this phase of life as “Who Am I?” and “What can I Be?”. Sasha and Stella examine this developmental period and ask how the concept of gender identity lays atop the teenage struggle for belonging, individuation, sexual development, and autonomy."

(extract extended notes)
"Up until 12 years old, everything a parent says is considered “law.” After 12, they turn it off and take in outside influences. This makes sense. Children need this process.
Children reject everything you stand for because they don’t want to be a clone of you.
As a mother, Stella says there is nothing that strikes terror in our hearts more when our children are unhappy.
Once our children are teenagers, is there nothing we can do to help them through this process?
Parents need to have a working knowledge of what their teenagers are swimming in. This is a vital time to build a stronger relationship with the child, not disconnect from them.
Do you want to understand where your children are coming from? Make the effort to learn what they’re into.
Teenagers are agonizing over what to call themselves. It’s difficult. There are a lot of categories to choose from." (continues)

gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/12-identity-vs-role-confusion-in-adolescence

Full list of Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast episodes: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/gender-a-wider-lens-podcast/id1542655295

Hopefully some useful responses on here OP. And of course it's not transphobic to question and support your son.
Any adult suggesting that parents should not be involved in their child's life is playing a very dangerous game. Every statistic shows that children do very poorly in terms of life chances when they are alienated from their parents (even children from abusive families). No adult should be trying to drive a wedge between parents and children ever.
As others have said, listening, love, support and watchful waiting along with keeping an eye on any toxic online influences .

It doesn't mean he is transitioning or even thinking about it - but he's obviously questioning ideas about gender and just needs a safe space to talk this through with a neutral adult who is not his parent.

It is utterly inappropriate and contrary to fundamental Safeguarding and Child Protection principles to attempt to undermine parental responsibility and parent/carer - child relationships.

I wouldn’t rush off to see your GP just now. I’d spend time listening to him and creating a safe place for him to talk to you. Too many parents (myself included!) try to express their views, which are coming from a mature informed position, but at the start I think this can backfire as most children just want to be listened to and putting your views out there at the beginning can cause them to shut down. There will be plenty time for discussion as opposed to just listening later if his feelings continue. In the meantime I’d also be keeping a very close eye on his internet usage.

I think the NHS is very hit or miss. Right at the start for us, the first GP ignored me and immediately referred DD to Sandyford against my wishes. I’d made the appointment in the hope of a CAMHS referral for ASD but as soon as gender was mentioned, it turned into a GIDS referral despite my disagreeing. However, more recently, a different GP has been far more understanding of the actual underlying issues and an NHS psychiatrist has said in no uncertain terms we should continue to not affirm her as a boy, so it can vary. My impression is that CAMHS are the most inclined towards affirmation although it does vary by area.

If you do eventually decide seeing a GP is appropriate, I would sound them out first and go well prepared.

Some great questions to think about with him-

How do you think a girl feels?
How do you think a boy feels?
Can a girl feel the things a boy feels?
Can a boy feel the things a girl feels?

Some things to think about with your DD-
Do you think someone whose been at your school a long time may know more than someone who's fairly new?
Do you think it's important to consider someone else may know something you don't know?
Do you want to learn all the things other people know?

Then gently point out you love hearing about the things she's learning, and you will always be listening out for new ideas and experiences. However you have many years of experiences, have met many people and seen many changes so you know things, too.

My young friend thought older people were very naive and inexperienced about sexuality and gender identity. I pointed out that actually my age group have been there, done that, tried a few different things and supported friends and acquaintances as they did the same.

Age and experience go hand in hand, generally speaking.

Three articles written with parents experiencing what you are experiencing OP

When Sons Become Daughters: Parents of Transitioning Boys Speak Out on Their Own Suffering

quillette.com/author/angus-fox/

And also to add: how does he know what it feels like to be a girl? He cannot, as he is a boy.

This is where good old 2nd wave feminism, which sees sex as the biological foundation, and gender as a socially & historically constructed system - which serves to maintain certain power hierarchies, and is pretty coercive for most people - women and men - is really helpful.

You can talk him through "gender non-conformity" or just find out why he doesn't "feel like a boy." While emphasising that however he feels is feeling like a boy, as he is a boy.

DS (12) said he didn't feel like a boy, but did feel like a girl

I think for a 12 year old boy, the prospect of facing the toxic masculinity around - r even some of the aspects of "ordinary" masculinity, could be frightening or depressing.

But just because he doesn't feel he conforms to the social construction of "boy" (masculinity), doesn't mean he's "really" a girl. It means he's a boy with a modicum of sensitivity and normal apprehension about growing up.

He's a person, who is biologically a boy/man, and male. With a personality ...

Neutral adult indeed.

If there were more of these neutral adults about, we wouldn't have the rise in referrals in teens so desperate to transition that have come about in recent times. The adults in the room are running scared at being called transphobic, crumbling at "transition me or I'll kill myself". Teens don't want to explore feelings, talk in therapy. When they want something they want it now.

And have pp have said, they have a whole online community cheering them on, telling them the magic words to say to get what they want.

I am not transphobic thanks. I have no doubt that there are trans people, and of course they need support and specialist services.

A 12 year old boy who doesn't conform to masculine stereotypes so concludes that he must therefore feel like a girl (feminine stereotypes)? The daughter calling OP super transphobic for not immediately affirming? Nope.

And the OP needs to get him in with one of these "neutral" adults does she?

How about calming down, slowing down, talking about his feelings, looking at gender stereotypes etc. Not being called a transphobe for not saying "how high" when the kids say jump, and not setting her son on a lifetime medical pathway just because he doesn't feel like a manly male.

Bayswater support group might be helpful, OP.

www.bayswatersupport.org.uk/

@nancywhitehead

The nhs and gp are NOT neutral. They affirm whatever the kids say because the kids learn a script of the internet that teaches them what to say to make sure they get a diagnosis. If you think you are trans then you ARE trans.

And I'm transphobic am I? I've been nothing but supportive to both of my children that claimed to be trans. News flash- they were just your run of the mill typical arse hole teenagers. Just like we all were but we're I pierced my own ears and dressed in black and listened to Alice Cooper , they want to inject implants that cause osteoporosis and then hormones that neuter them. (I've been on hormone blockers by the way and they are HORRIBLE ).

The oldest one is no longer claiming to be trans but has I taken him to the gender Gp clinic on line he would have been prescribed puberty blockers and cross sex hormones. His penis would have stopped developing and then shrink. His brain wouldn't be going through the maturation process that it is. And he most certainly wouldn't be a gay man enjoying a healthy sex like like he is now.

I think your DS is at a difficult age. Around 12 or so, children start to realise their sex more than before. They're getting closer to starting on the ascent towards adulthood. They look and see their ‘path’ and look at their peers. If there are aspects of the stereotypes associated with their gender that they don’t identify with, it’s normal to question themselves.

So make it clear subtly to your DS that being male can mean anything - doing any job, liking or hating sport, being sensitive, having long hair, etc, etc. I’d be wary of saying anything that could be seen as confrontational or intrusive. Subtle, careful statements and gentle questions when appropriate are the way forward.

How did those conversation arise? I’d be wary of your DD consciously or unconsciously spreading dogma. I’d also make it clear that most people don’t have a gender identity because in the 21st century, we don’t subscribe to regressive stereotypes about men/boys and women/girls.