What do you say to women who accept TWAW?

About the same as I do to the millions of women who've accepted Jesus as their lord and saviour?

ie. we don't share the belief, but I won't bring it into the conversation if they don't.

Not read the whole thread yet but this is weird already.

Are there really millions of women who think TWs are actual biological women?

I highly doubt it.

“Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women"

Why are people so inclined to go to the extreme opposite position? What happened to nuanced debate? Of course you don’t say anything... you use the name they want and be professional. It doesn’t need a debate.

@persistentwoman - thanks for sharing the Jane Clare Jones twitter thread - love that she calls a spade a spade! I came to gender critical through feminism but also the narrative of opposing individualism and an awareness of class based politics which STILL COUNTS, despite some TRAs trying to put us in a group with far rightists. Are there really millions of women who think TWs are actual biological women? I have found that talking about sports and safeguarding is the best way in to encourage discussion when people are uncertain exactly where they stand.

I don’t think millions of women have given it a second thought actually. Mainly because they go through their whole lives never meeting a trans man or woman. I used to be in the “be kind” camp which fits in with my general liberal stance on other issues. What changed for me was the conversation on sport... I read about the trans cyclist winning everything ( can’t remember her name now). When I went and looked at her social media she seemed obnoxious to me - argumentative and unwilling to consider she had any kind of advantage. Once you know about trans boxers and other athletes it’s really hard to maintain that women aren’t being unfairly penalised. That was the starting point of changing my own stance. People are vaguely supportive because it’s cool to be woke but I doubt many have confronted the issues in their lives on any meaningful level.

*There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.*

Depends on the course. If it has nothing to do with biological sex differences between men and women, then this person's sex is of no relevance and you treat them with the respect they deserve.

It is when the biological sex differences between men and women matter, like healthcare, single sex facilities, prisons and sports, that the mantra should be 'transwomen are transwomen, women are women and gender is not sex'.

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default.

Not really. I don't believe TWAW but I wouldn't point it out unless there is a pressing need to do so.

@HarebrightCedarmoon most posters here wouldn’t be rude and are respectful of individuals. They just don’t believe that trans women are actually women. Many trans women agree with this point of view.

Even if a man could change his body and DNA to become a woman physically, he won’t be able to undo the effects of socialisation as a male child/young adult. Girls are disadvantaged due to socialisation so will need specific support to overcome this which isn’t applicable to trans women, who again have their own issues.

We should be able to join forces when issues overlap and accept each other’s differences by stepping back at other times.

I also consider being compelled to share single sex spaces with two sexes to be enforced harassment.

I don't want to because it has this effect on me:

The unwanted behaviour must have the purpose or effect of violating your dignity, or creating a degrading, humiliating, hostile, intimidating or offensive environment for you.

https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-harassment-and-victimisation

YY, same here. This angle needs to be considered more, IMO.

How would doing that be relevant to the course?

But in not calling the issue out I'm accepting a TWAW by default. So I'm a woman accepting TWAW, and I wondered what people would say, which is the subject of the thread.

Then the more I looked, the more I realised that TRAs have very little interest in the wellbeing of the trans people (the not wanting research into PBs, desistance and the not wanting Tavistock to be investigated despite obvious poor practice demonstrated that). Instead it's about bullying women. Once you see it, you can't unsee it.

The argument against TWAW is not one aimed at individual people. It is a catch all description - just as The GC is in the OP!

Does the transwoman on your course demand you say "and yes you are female" every time you say her name? Or does she just as to be referred to as she/female sounding name.

Does she respect any woman's request not to follow her into a single sex space? Is she as respectful of you as she is asking you to be respectful of her?

Can you see that it is an individual issue, on a day to day basis.

But politically it is quite different.

I don't. In the same way that I don't go around telling Christians that their god isn't real....
Same.
I talk to people about it when they start telling me facts about myself, like that I have a female gender identity and that there is no reason I should be concerned about sharing space with people with penises.
I tend not to bother with this on the Internet though as it turns into an academic "gotcha!" debate and my life is too short.

Noone actually believes TWAW, least of all TRA. If they did they would show as much care for them as they do women ie none.

@HarebrightCedarmoon not a single person here responding is telling other women what they must do. You will have your own beliefs and rightly so.

I dont explain anything unless I am asked.

While I’m not at all suggesting that the OP would do this or referring to anyone specific, some people who resent the fact that we’re allowed to discuss issues like this on Mumsnet may be scanning this thread and others like it for screenshots to post on social media.

There is a transwoman on a course I'm doing now, using she and clearly referring to herself as female. Are people suggesting I start referring to her as male and using "he"? And start saying things like "transwomen aren't women".

As I think that would be incredibly offensive and rude of me, personally.

I would ask if they have ever looked at a simple diagram of male and female anatomy in a biology book and see if they can spot the differences.

Bibidy

Only as I see that is quite a big part of many people's arguments here - eg risk of rape or assault if TW are allowed into female single sex spaces like changing rooms etc.

I also consider being compelled to share single sex spaces with two sexes to be enforced harassment.

I don't want to because it has this effect on me:

The unwanted behaviour must have the purpose or effect of violating your dignity, or creating a degrading, humiliating, hostile, intimidating or offensive environment for you.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/what-harassment-and-victimisation

To be unlawful, the treatment must have happened in one of the situations that are covered by the Equality Act. For example, in the workplace or when you are receiving goods or services.