Genital Inspections

As I mentioned previously, yes in our martial art, we have some mixed sex events and absolutely, the females can beat the males because they are about displaying precision and technique. No way no how could the females win in the full contact sparring. Most of the experienced 13 year old boys would beat any of the womens team.

able bodied athletes insisted on competing in categories they identified with (and trans abled people do exist)

I remember an interview with an athlete who wryly said that most of the time everyone is minimising their disabilities and getting round them but for the categorisation assessments for the Paralympics, everyone is trying to get into a class by exaggerating the impact of them. It's standard gaming of anything with a threshold - as with weight classes for horse-racing, martial arts, boxing etc.

In the case we're discussing here - you're spot on that this is an attempt to remove thresholds altogether. And it's getting to be the logical outcome of a slew of legislation in various areas related to the general topic.

if you are happy for it to be sex segregated and for this to happen then fine. But I would disagree

Super happy for it to be sex segregated. Seems that the powers that be agree with that. Disappointing for you I'm sure. Never mind.

There's more than just those instances. There are loads
Stop looking for individual cases to try and prove your unprovable point. Earlier you said some sports should be sex segregated - have you changed your mind then?

I do enjoy hearing the TA arguments. Tissue paper thin, every single one of them.

This is what happens when you are indulged in #nodebate, you land up with assumptions which have not been challenged. And then you are daft enough to present them to Mumsnet, full of women who have been challenged on every single fucking thing since we were 12 years old.

It must feel very unsettling, hope you are ok, OP. Nothing you have been lead to believe is real or true. Sex is real, and it's best we don't pretend otherwise. It must be difficult to emerge from a silo and be faced with a barrage of "yeah, but, no - and here is the long list of evidence supporting the "no""

I know this is controversial because of arguments about fair pay for women in football - particularly in the US - but this is the reality and it's happened over and over...

Manchester United women beaten 9-0 by Salford youth team

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/football/6881715/manchester-united-women-beaten-9-0-by-salford-youth-team-triggers-vile-sexist-abuse-on-twitter/

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Swedish football ladies beaten by teen boys--

https://www.thelocal.se/20130116/4564646----/--

Australian women's national team lose 7-0 to team of 15-year-old boys*

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-women-s-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

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FC Dallas under-15 boys squad beat the U.S. Women's National Team

https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/

Oh well, good news anyway. It's time we had some fairness for women and girls. Right, time for a cuppa and a late breakfast! Happy days.

Dance. Cheerleading. Snooker. Croquet. And more.

This undermines your entire argument. These sports aren't affected by hormonal and other sex based differences in the same way that rugby, basketball, tennis, etc are.

Compare the 100m WRs for example. Usain Bolt ran a new WR in 9.58s in 2009. The female WR is 10.49s. It maybe less than a second slower but bear in mind Florence Griffith Joyner ran that in 1988. So in the last 37 (!) years no woman has beaten the record.

But they can compete against men?

Sure.

And I haven't even started on contact sports yet.

OP, you seem to have no idea what you’re talking about. Not to mention banging on about “forced genital inspections”, which was debunked many, many times. Your posts are truly tedious.

Yes you have linked to two examples but that actually doesn't prove what you are trying to say - which is far from clear since a few pages back you said some sports should be segregated. You gave croquet and chess (not a sport btw) as examples. In athletics there are clear differences between the sexes- this is not disputed. Are you now saying that mixed sex athletics would be fair? Why do you think that overall women are so much slower then? That they're just not trying hard enough? I think your sexism is showing.

Disabled people have had to endure invasive tests for categories in disability sport. I have to wonder what would happen if able bodied athletes insisted on competing in categories they identified with (and trans abled people do exist) but insisting the tests that apply to disabled participants simply don’t apply to them.

There are reasons so many sports are sex segregated.

Time to put the kettle on.

"If you know sport, you know this beyond a reasonable doubt: there is an average 10-12% performance gap between elite males and elite females. The gap is smaller between elite females and non-elite males, but it’s still insurmountable and that’s ultimately what matters. Translating these statistics into real world results, we see, for example, that:
Just in the single year 2017, Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Tori Bowie's 100 meters lifetime best of 10.78 was beaten 15,000 times by men and boys. (Yes, that’s the right number of zeros.)
The same is true of Olympic, World, and U.S. Champion Allyson Felix’s 400 meters lifetime best of 49.26. Just in the single year 2017, men and boys around the world outperformed her more than 15,000 times."

law.duke.edu/sports/sex-sport/comparative-athletic-performance/

OP, are you being deliberately obtuse or do you genuinely believe what you are saying? the two examples you have linked to above have made the news PRECISELY because they are so unusual (one was even described as “historic” in the article, I believe.

Why do you hate women and girls so much?

The only reason either of those stories are stories is because of the truly exceptional circumstances of females beating males. The fact it’s a rare occurrence is why it’s made the news.

Exceptional rare circumstances occurring do not mean women and girls are on a level playing field with men and boys.

boysvswomen.com/#/

Do you care about the hundreds of women and girls whose lives have been negatively affected by males in their sport, OP?

Not you again

I really agree with the drug testing, I've said this on other threads. Anyone taking drugs should not be allowed to compete.

I think all sensible adults understand that the bill will not require athletes to drop their pants for an inspection but clearly what the bill is trying to do is to stop people cheating.

Essentially what the OP Is saying is this. Lets say you have twins, a boy and a girl, both compete at the same sport at a high level, for arguments sake lets say swimming. The boy announces that he now wants to be a girl and therefore will compete with the girls. This will mean his sister will miss out on a place, maybe a scholarship. In fact it means his sister, all her female friends, all the girls who have worked their hardest to improve times, make the team. None of the parents I know would allow their child to do this, it is cheating, pure and simple.

It seems to me that they are just trying to find the easiest, most dignified way of ensuring competitors compete in the correct sex category. Which is the way sport should be played.

Serena Williams could beat my husband at Tennis and Ellie Symonds (Paraolympian) cluld beat him in swimming. So?

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

This only works to a certain age, and in fact during a slight window in childhood, girls are more likely to win against boys as they have raced ahead physically so they have an advantage. Once you get to young adolescence the girls/boys are equal no longer holds true. A trans woman will naturally have greater lung capacity, muscle strength and build than a XX person and post early adolescence it is a very unfair advantage in competitive sport. Unless it’s giant chess or something without a physical component.

Girls can beat boys at sports. They've done so many times.

Which sports? Which girls? I think stating this with evidence is very important in order to verify the statement. I am thinking it might be possible in dressage or chess, for example, but probably not in weight lifting or running.