Genital Inspections

Please ignore my previous post, I misread the original quote....

So then trans women taking estrogen should be allowed in women's sports by that logic.

Eh? That doesn't follow by that logic, because oestrogen doesn't undo the physical benefits of male puberty.

@doublehalo

🥇💡- genius!

So then trans women taking estrogen should be allowed in women's sports by that logic

Trans women benefit from male puberty.
So no.

Don't know about anyone else but I'm looking forward to beating Harry Kane at football. I didn't realise I just needed to train harder.

"So then trans women taking estrogen should be allowed in women's sports by that logic."

No because oestrogen doesn't confer an athletic/strength/training advantage!

So then trans women taking estrogen should be allowed in women's sports by that logic.
What logic? That doesn't follow at all.

OP. Do you understand that genital inspections are not required by the bill? That other options are given?

Can you give a straight answer to that question?

I asked this a few times. Utterly disingenuous of OP to not just admit they accepted the comment from the bill's opponent as correct but can now see that it is incorrect. Why not just say you got it wrong?!

Firstly, there are many non-invasive means to determine sex.
Secondly, sex is not the same as gender.
Thirdly, many sports categorize participants by age, weight, and sex for safety reasons. Being asked to prove that you belong to a specific category doesn't seem unreasonable.

@ASugarr You seem to have missed my question:
Earlier you said some sports should be sex segregated - have you changed your mind then?

@ASugarr why are you referencing a couple of extreme edge cases where a girl has beaten a boy to try to disprove the general case that men have a physical advantage over women? You can look at the evidence provided on this thread, you can look at the world records in athletics, you can look at the age category records in athletics, same for weight lifting. Even things like ice skating where the best women are just recently trying quadruple spin jumps where they are now expected in the men's competitions.

There is a host of hard evidence to demonstrate that at every level of competition men have an advantage over women. Of course occasionally truly exceptional women can beat mediocre or unlucky men, but that doesn't disprove the general case.

Clearly no child needs to have a medical examination to establish sex - you can do that with a hormone check.

The point of school sport is to keep kids healthy, so schools need to do what they can to make sports safe. If adolescent trans girls are significantly stronger/heavier/have better stamina etc than most girls then clearly it is not fair or safe for them to compete with most girls.

This may well depend on when they have transitioned and what the sport is. Going forward we’ll have enough data to build a framework.

We should always strive for inclusion, but since it is impossible to make life entirely fair for everyone at all times, we have to focus on making it fair for the majority. This applies to adult competitive sport as well as kids sport.

All of this is common sense.

Surely nobody should be able to compete if they are on hormones anyway as it would be doping?

Well no if they've been taking testosterone because that wouldn't be fair would it. If not there's no advantage. But let's not pretend that Trans men are going to make significant inroads into many male sports.

Surely this is an argument for not messing around with sex on birth certificates.

No need to check physically if it's accurate on a piece of paper.

A birth certificate should suffice if needs be.

It's the OP and sensationalised news stories that are claiming inspections of genital would be necessary. It seems that a doctor's note or cheek swab would be sufficient.

And - oddly enough, depending on the country that you're in, the sex on a birth certificate can be legally changed.

There's more than just those instances. There are loads. You can think it's because I hate women or something but that would be rather ironic. I mean if you are happy for it to be sex segregated and for this to happen then fine. But I would disagree.
committedconservative.com/2018/02/25/boy-beats-girl-texas-state-girls-wrestling-championship/

I thought we had already covered the unfairness of performance enhancing drugs.

We should be celebrating our differences-not trying to sweep them under the carpet. Everyone is beautiful and deserves to be feted for their sporting prowess.

Given that huge global companies, charities, media, lobby groups, governments, around the world are championing the rights of trans folk I believe an enormous amount of money could be made available to set up new sports boards, acadamies and sporting events. It could be the dawn of a golden age.

Judging by the amount of men who are vocal in their support of TW I wouldn't be surprised if such events would prove to be as popular or even surpass large sporting events like the World Cup etc.

This could be a billion £ industry. All very exciting I think!

No, looking at children's or teens genitals is abominable. A birth certificate should suffice if needs be.

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/disability-sport/41851149

My friend is a fully transitioned trans woman of many years and she used to be very into boxing. She won't do it now against women because she said it wouldnt be fair because she retains much pre-transition strength and speed.

Mandatory genital inspections would not be acceptable, however that isn't what is being proposed. The person opposing the bill in that article has twisted what was actually said in order to gain an emotional reaction.

The Florida House passed a bill on April 14, 2021, that would ban trans girls and women from playing on high school and collegiate teams. It would also allow schools to require a genital inspection of student athletes suspected of being trans.

CS/HB 1475 - Sex-specific Student Athletic Teams or Sports, which is now before the Florida State Senate, does neither of these things. Full text of the current version is available here and the full legislative history including amendments adopted and voted down in the House is here. And - sorry, not sure if this is accessible outside the US - more detail on the House discussions is here. I don't see the Representative that allegedly endorses this "genital inspections!" moral panic showing up.

The proposed legislation doesn’t mention genital inspections; the only possibly relevant text is (lines 59-66): "The health care provider may verify the student's biological sex as part of a routine sports physical examination by relying only on one or more of the following: The student's reproductive anatomy; The student's genetic makeup; or The student's normal endogenously produced testosterone levels."

In real life, an annual physical for teenagers attending a US public school (and certainly for most involved in competitive sport) includes lying down on a table in your underpants only and a semi-transparent “johnny”. I apologise for the crudity, but this thread has a lot of delusion in it: in the vast majority of cases, no one has to touch or even bare your genitals to know what’s up. And that’s for kids who show up from abroad; US public school children will have a medical record which follows them (as long as they stay in the US) since they first started school, as they’d be obliged to show, at the very least, a vaccination history. The idea that a child’s paediatrician doesn’t know the child’s sex is disingenuous.

The bill would also allow the school or another party to “dispute” a student’s gender, which would then require the student to provide proof of biological sex from a health care provider through either a physical exam, a genetic test, or proof of testosterone levels.”

This is exactly (apart from the conflation of gender and sex) what the bill seeks to PREVENT, by empowering the school to obtain and record this information up front - which they would do, as (if the bill passes) the school would then become the legally responsible party rather than any regional, state, or national bodies.

Many sports are mixed sex and women still (s)trive and win. Sure, and the bill explicitly acknowledges this, categorising competitive categories as all male, all female, or co-ed. The co-ed category is exempt from any of this.

Yet in primary schools in the UK you tend to change infront of others and play PE games with members of the opposite sex. True in the US too (except there normally would be separate locker rooms) - but this legislation specifically applies to secondary (12+) and tertiary (18+) education.

RE birth certificates, each US state issues its own and laws vary widely about what sexes can be recorded and how and when they can be changed. In California, for example, it is possible to have a birth certificate issued with sex of M, F, X, or blank, with the opportunity (but not the requirement) to amend later on. This was designed to address certain specific intersex conditions, but is not limited to such cases. Therefore, in some cases there is no legal record of sex.