Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

However, in practice, the Swedish police do not actively pursue these kind of cases. The Swedish national police authorities, upon contact, note that they are not aware of anyone engaged in prostitution losing their rental contract in this way.

I do not believe the Swedish national police authorities. It happens all the time. They are very cagey about the information they give out, I didn't know that there were only two successful prosecutions and no imprisonments for sex buyers until I read this thread. They kept that quite.

Just because someone at Nordic Model Now! talked to someone on the phone at public relations for the Swedish police means nothing. Of course he or she can say 'they are not aware'.

Also, we are talking about 2 different things. Two or more prostitutes working together for safety can be prosecuted under pimping laws, as in Britain. They all get arrested even though they all sell sex.

Then, as admitted in the Nordic Model Now! extract, if the police can identify a prostitute they will approach her landlord and threaten him or her with prosecution if he or she does not evict.

I would like to ask Simon Haggstrom a few questions. He is the officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police boasting that he has arrested 700 men. This is in the Guardian article that HecatesCatsInFancyHats referred us to. Prostitution: why Swedes believe they got it right

1. How many of these 700 men have been convicted? (probably 0)
2. How many women have you arrested for brothel-keeping?
3. How many women have you got evicted?
4. Why did you say that there were 2,500 prostitutes in Sweden in 1998?
5. Why did you say that there are now 1,000 prostitutes in Sweden when there is no research saying that?
6. Why are you such a liar?

"Some people argue that the Nordic Model does not fully decriminalise prostituted women in Sweden, because the police pursue them for sharing flats under laws prohibiting procuring. This article, based on information from legal scholar, Gunilla S. Ekberg,[1] explains why this line of argument is erroneous.
The overarching aim of the prostitution law in Sweden is to discourage all forms of prostitution-related activities, while not pursuing individuals who are prostituted.
Procuring is an offence under the Swedish Penal Code, and applies to all prostitution-related activities, such as brothels and ‘outcall’ services. The offence is defined in Chapter 6: Sexual crimes, section 12, of the Swedish Penal Code:
A person who promotes or improperly financially exploits the casual sexual relations for payment of another person shall be sentenced for procuring to imprisonment for at most four years.
A person who, holding the right to the use of premises, grants the right to use them to another in the knowledge that the premises are wholly or to a substantial extent used for casual sexual relations for payment and omits to do what can reasonably be expected to terminate the granted right, he or she shall, if the activity continues or is resumed at the premises, be considered to have promoted the activity and shall be sentenced pursuant to the first paragraph.
If the crime referred to in the first or second paragraphs is considered gross, the person shall be convicted of gross procuring and sentenced to imprisonment of at least two and at most eight years.
When assessing whether the crime is gross, special consideration shall be given to whether the crime involved an activity, which was pursued on a larger scale, resulted in significant gains, or involved ruthless exploitation of another. (Law 2005:90)
The second paragraph (in italics) has been used in combination with other legal interventions to close down apartments that have been let or sub-let to criminal gangs, and where women have been exploited in prostitution. It is therefore an important tool in the fight against human trafficking for sexual purposes.
It does make it illegal for two prostituted women to operate from the same premises, because the owners, if they are aware, would be committing a crime. However, this needs to be understood within the context that prostituted persons are not pursued.
If the police receive information that two women are active in prostitution in an apartment that belongs to one of them, or to someone else, the primary rental contract holder / owner of the apartment building is approached with information about the procuring offence and requested to ensure that the apartment is no longer used for these purposes.
Provided none of the prostituted persons are under 18, the police would only proceed with an investigation into procuring after informing the primary contract holder/ owner about the law and giving her or him time to cease the activity. However, in practice, the Swedish police do not actively pursue these kind of cases. The Swedish national police authorities, upon contact, note that they are not aware of anyone engaged in prostitution losing their rental contract in this way.
The argument that under the Nordic Model, prostituted women are prosecuted for sharing premises therefore does not stand up to scrutiny – at least not in Sweden.
Every country that has implemented the Nordic Model has done so in a slightly different way, and how the legislation and policies are drafted and implemented vary.
The Nordic Model involves a profound paradigm shift that challenges men’s historic entitlement to sexual access to women and girls and many people, particularly men, resist the changes involved. As men retain disproportionate power within most of the public institutions (police, public prosecutions, legal system, treasury, etc.) even in countries that have passed Nordic Model-based legislation, there are many opportunities for the spirit and implementation of the approach to be sabotaged – on a national, regional and local level.
For example, police might simply fail to arrest punters, as happened in the first year of operation in Northern Irelandd_, or they might use other legislation to pursue prostituted women, or authorities may fail to provide funding for exiting services, public information programmes, and training for the police and public officials. These factors need to be taken into consideration in any evaluation of the approach."

https://nordicmodelnow.org/myths-about-prostitution/myth-police-prosecute-prostituted-women-for-sharing-flats-in-sweden/

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Are you saying you don't believe that prostitutes get arrested in Nordic model countries?

I don't understand how you can think that if I don't want women to be arrested, imprisoned, deported and evicted then that must mean that I am a man.

The fact that I am willing to spend time looking at the research because I don't believe what politicians say in newspaper articles shows that I have more concern for women than most of the people who have contributed to this thread.

They aren't. The implementation may not be as effective in Ireland, but it isn't the case that the Nordic Model means prostitutes getting arrested. I take it from your response that you are a man Jenny.

@HecatesCatsInFancyHats

Why do you want decriminalisation Jenny?

I want decriminalisation because I don't want women who work together for safety to be arrested. Arrests happen in Nordic model countries, in Britain, and in countries like Germany too (I guess). It doesn't happen in New Zealand.

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

This is not true.

It's true in Nordic model Ireland.

"To date, there have been a total of four outcomes of criminal proceedings against buyers (three convictions and one where the Probation of Offenders Act was applied)."

The two Romanian women I referred to earlier were only the most high profile of women arrested for working together for safety since the Nordic model came in. I have no idea of the total figure, I can't find it in Dr Geoffrey Shannon's report.

And that in fact your main concern is for women and not punters...

As a woman (I'm assuming you are a woman) wouldn't you want to send a clear message that prostitution of women's bodies is not socially acceptable?

Why do you want decriminalisation Jenny?

You've got a dame in England and a cop in Sweden, both desperate to prove that the Nordic model works. They come up with different statistics, neither of which can be found in any research. One wants us to believe that the number of prostitutes in Denmark is ten times higher than in Sweden. The other wants us to believe that the number of prostitutes in Sweden is 1,000.

One of the reasons they want to show it is working is because they can influence public opinion. If you told people that the war against drugs is working (it isn't) then millions of people will say "Well, I didn't think it would work but if it does then I'll support it". Same with the Nordic model. According to the surveys though it's not the Nordic model they support - or at least not the Nordic model as promoted - it's the American model: Swedish people want prostitutes to be punished as well as punters. Not very progressive.

So let's listen to the experts. This comes from the Skarhed report:-

In Sweden, the total number of persons in prostitution in the 1980s and 1990s was presumed to be between 2,000 and 3,000 per year. Subsequently, more precise studies of prostitution’s overall scope have not been carried out (see section 4.3.11). Even if arriving at an estimate of the scope of all forms of prostitution in Sweden seems very problematic, there is no support for the hypothesis that prostitution has increased to the same degree as it has in Norway and Denmark.

What it's saying is that they have no idea how many prostitutes there are in Sweden. They think it might have increased in Sweden, but it probably hasn't increased as much in Sweden as in Norway and Denmark. That's what the expert says, Chancellor of Justice Anna Skarhed, completely different from what the English dame and the Swedish cop say.
ec.europa.eu/anti-trafficking/sites/antitrafficking/files/the_ban_against_the_purchase_of_sexual_services._an_evaluation_1999-2008_1.pdf

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

This is not true.

Of course arrests act as deterrents though don't they.

Screenshot from above link. All it says is that street-based sex work has halved whilst the sex trade remains at pre-law levels.

Given there were only 2 convictions for buying sex in the first 13 years and that sex workers are unwilling to testify against their clients (which is needed for a client conviction), I would imagine word would spread that the buying-sex part of the Nordic Model laws is barely enforceable and nothing to worry about.

Seems ironic that the Nordic Model has resulted in way more convictions of prostitutes than clients.

Of course arrests act as deterrents though don't they. Which has probably contributed to the reduction of prostitution in Sweden where the (Nordic Model) law remains popular. I guess if you had a vested interest in not seeing a reduction in prostitution then any idea of it being introduced here would be met with resistance. It's not really a coincidence that it's been brought in in countries with the most progressive sex equality laws.

""Simon Haggstrom, an officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police, is on the frontline of this push to stop men from paying for sex. "My job is to arrest as many men buying sex as possible and I think I have arrested about 700 men since 2007."

A 2012 report by the UN HIV and the Law Commission reveals in the first 13 years of the Nordic Model in Sweden there were 2,000 arrests. Sound good? What if I told you out of all of these arrests there were just 2 convictions, they pleaded guilty and got a low fine.

The Nordic Model is unworkable as the report says sex workers aren't willing to testify against their clients.

The report says funding for Social Work is low in Sweden because the money is siphoned into policing. Not only is it almost impossible to get convictions it's not a cheap law to try to enforce either.

www.hivlawandpolicy.org/sites/default/files/FinalReport-Risks%2CRights%26Health-EN.pdf page 38

He says the number of prostitutes has dramatically decreased since the law was introduced, from 2,500 across Sweden in 1998 to about 1,000 today.

There is no reference for this figure. In 1996 the proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers was 1.3%. Then there was the sex buyer law in 1999. In 2008, when the next survey was conducted, the figure had risen to 1.8%. This is from the report by Mujaj and Netscher in 2014. If it has decreased since 2008, the year of the financial crisis, then we have no reason to believe it is because of the 1999 law.

It is clear that the implementation varies, but the Swedish Police force say it has led to a reduction in prostitution and the majority of the population in Sweden - particularly young people support the law.

There seems to be some confusion about prostitutes getting arrested in Nordic model countries. Earlier in this thread someone wrote "And you're completely confused about the Nordic model. Prostitutes are not arrested under the Nordic Model. The punters and enablers are." Another wrote "I can't recall seeing reports of these almost mythical 2 prostitutes working together being prosecuted. There certainly have been prosecutions of pimps, traffickers and brothel keepers."

Theory and practice are two different things. In theory prostitutes are decriminalized in Nordic model countries. In practice it has never been illegal to be a prostitute but it continues to be illegal to keep a brothel. Also the police demand that landlords evict prostitutes.

The Irish Republic has been a Nordic model country for a few years and there has been an official report on how it is doing. I quote from this report by Dr Geoffrey Shannon.

However, there is a concern that women who are not themselves organising prostitution or profiting from the exploitation of the prostitution of others may have, on occasion, been targeted under this law. The highest profile incidence of this happening was the conviction and the sentencing of two young Romanian women for brothel keeping, one of whom was pregnant. The women pleaded guilty, were granted bail and were sentenced to nine months in prison for which they are currently appealing.

How about evidence from a Stockholm police officer? Or is he lying too...

"Simon Haggstrom, an officer in the prostitution unit of Stockholm police, is on the frontline of this push to stop men from paying for sex. "My job is to arrest as many men buying sex as possible and I think I have arrested about 700 men since 2007. [They] should know that they are taking a huge risk: they are considering going out into the central parts of Stockholm actually buying another human being. We will go after them."
He says the number of prostitutes has dramatically decreased since the law was introduced, from 2,500 across Sweden in 1998 to about 1,000 today."

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2013/dec/11/prostitution-sweden-model-reform-men-pay-sex?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

In 1999, Sweden banned paying for sex. Almost a decade later, a study showed that the number of prostituted women there was a tenth of the total in neighbouring Denmark, where buying sex was, and still is, legal.

This is from the Daily Mail article. I have tried to find this statistic online but not found it anywhere. As far as I can tell this is a false statistic. I assume that it comes from the Skarhed report but I have looked at this report and it doesn't say anything like this. So it's another lie.

Compassion for the male human being who is disabled, no compassion for the female support human providing the relief.

I think having a right to forge friendships and other relationships doesn't necessarily need to encompass state purchase of prostitutes for men, a transaction which is illegal in several other European countries including the Republic of Ireland.

I agree. I don't believe anyone should be given the state enabled right to contract prostitutes. Sex is not a right. A woman's body is not a right

I have seen it argued that Article 8 enshrines a right to sex through a broad interpretation of
"The concept of private life also covers your right to develop your personal identity and to forge friendships and other relationships".

I very much hope this interpretation is wrong.

I thought it was interesting that the judgement was all about the ability of the person in care to consent, no consideration at all given to the poor woman who was going to be purchased. And I know this is the way the law is, but it made me angry, and I think illustrates why the purchase of sex should be criminalised.

I agree. I don't believe anyone should be given the state enabled right to contract prostitutes. Sex is not a right. A woman's body is not a right.