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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

263 replies

LadyVymes · 18/04/2021 00:22

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9482555/MARY-HARRINGTON-social-justice-warriors-backing-men-pay-sex.html

OP posts:
jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:37

Do not misrepresent my views. I have not said that trafficking does not exist. I have not said that no woman has ever been harmed in prostitution.

Trafficking exists in many areas of money-making. We don't usually call it trafficking in most areas unless coercion is involved. We do call it trafficking in sex work even if coercion is not involved.

I have ordered a book called 'The Truth about Modern Slavery' by Emily Kenway. She is an expert on the issue and I want to read what she has to say. The review says "It shows how anti-slavery action acts as a moral cloak, hiding the harms of the 'hostile environment' towards migrants, legitimising big brands' exploitation of the poorest workers and oppressing sex workers."

jennywhitehorses · 15/05/2021 12:28

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Extract

Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist/ obstetrician who helps women in prostitution. He does medical exams and provides care. This is from his statement given to the Deutscher Bundestag in a hearing preceding the new law.

His statement in brief: The overuse and abuse of the women's sexual organs leads to inflammations, STIs and beyond STIs, and of course this situation makes them much more vulnerable to STIs

That's interesting because Dr Petra Boynton says the opposite about prostitutes in the UK. This is her writing in the Lancet.

The recent increase in sexually transmitted infections in the general population in the United Kingdom contrasts with a reduced prevalence in female sex workers. And the prevalence of HIV infection in sex workers, mainly associated with injecting drug use, remains low - between 0% and 3.5%. Sex workers have a responsible approach to managing the risk of sexually transmitted infections, with a high prevalence of condom use for commercial vaginal sex (98%).

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1352040/

Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist. He only sees women with medical problems. Dr Petra Boynton is a researcher. Her job is to find out about UK prostitutes in general, not just those who come to her with medical problems. Most prostitutes in the UK do not have 15 to 30 customers in one day. The only ones who do are the more popular ones in the Soho walk ups and even then it's not usually more than 20. I don't support the system in Germany, I support the system in New Zealand.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 21:15

Women not women's

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 21:14

In a civilised society women's shouldn't have to sell their bodies to make money. Women are not commodities.

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 20:17

Slightly off-topic but you might be interested to know Germany has currently banned sex work because of covid concerns. Sex workers are in a difficult position with some choosing to continue illegally despite the ban because they need the money.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-57029723

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 20:15

"If it wasn't an issue, why is there a multi-national effort to stop it."

Because of certain politicians and tabloids continually claiming it to be such a massive issue, which the public listen to/read and believe.

Quote from the article:
"Current and former ministers have claimed that thousands of women have been imported into the UK and forced to work as sex slaves, but most of these statements were either based on distortions of quoted sources or fabrications without any source at all."

"human traffickers who had duped these innocent girls into coming to Britain. Sentencing them to 21 and 16 years respectively,"

As seen from these given sentences, trafficking for sexual reasons is dealt with seriously in Britain despite the fact sex work isn't illegal here.

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade

This article despite being about a trafficking case does contain the quote "The majority of UK sex work is done independently and consensually".

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 19:09

There's been a huge increase in the trafficking of Romanian women for prostitution since 2009.

"Instead, the police investigation found that the brothel and the women inside were under the control of a criminal gang, which was also running at least three other premises where Romanian women were being exploited. It is estimated that just one of these brothels would have brought over £1m in profits every year."

https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/nov/30/silent-victims-the-hidden-romanian-women-exploited-in-the-uk-sex-trade?CMP=ShareiOSAppp_Other

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 18:54

If it wasn't an issue, why is there a multi-national effort to stop it.

And obviously the UK government is just wasting money on a non-event then. Way to continue to downplay a serious issue with out of date facts.

You are not convincing me and, I doubt, any other readers with this line.

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 18:42

*"2009 is a very long time ago. And we know that there are trafficked people working in different industries in the UK now.

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied."*

It's a while ago now, but worth noting as it was a massive anti-trafficking operation, the biggest ever in Britain in fact. If trafficking was as big a problem as some sources (cough Daily Record) make it out to be then I would imagine they would have found thousands of traffickers and victims during such a large operation, but this just wasn't the case.

The article also says:
"There are more people trafficked for labour exploitation than there are for sexual exploitation. We need to redress the balance here. People just seem to grab figures from the air."

Trafficking for sexual reasons does of course exist but I think many sources may possibly be exaggerating the extent of it. Possibly because many sources also automatically assume any sex worker who is from another country to be "trafficked".

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 17:21

My brain skipped over that because I knew exactly what you meant!

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 17:00

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.

Ooops That would be 'highly' unlikely not hardly likely.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 16:23

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.

Very much this.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 14/05/2021 15:23

At what point would the percentage of trafficked women become too big to ignore? Asking for me.

Recent posts have reminded me of this article, from October 20th, 2005.

In less elevated circles, such as the website Punternet, where one can imagine obscure versions of Wayne Rooney or Hugh Grant or Jeffrey Archer seeking helpful tips or information, men who buy sex submit their reports in much the same righteous, easily aggrieved tone as the Good Food Guide's amateur inspectors, gittishly rating prostitutes for warmth of welcome, interior decor, value for money and whether or not they would recommend the individual in question to future users.

Clearly, standards in the domestic sex trade are not always what they should be. "She's Polish but her English isn't brilliant. Only been with the agency a couple of days," notes a discerning consumer whose fee was collected by "an agent". Communication seems to be a common problem: "English not her strongest language, but her personality more than compensated," comments another customer. On the plus side, the eastern European monoglots seem to be younger than the home-grown product. "If she wore a school uniform, she would have looked 16," gloats one report, whose author guesses that the woman in question was actually around 19 years old. The same age, then, as one of the Lithuanian girls whose auction last year, at the Costa Coffee concession at Gatwick airport, was described in a report on a sex-trafficking case in yesterday's Daily Mirror.

Much, quite rightly, was made of the vileness of the swarthy human traffickers who had duped these innocent girls into coming to Britain. Sentencing them to 21 and 16 years respectively, the judge, Trevor Barber, this week told Tasim Axhami, a Serb, and Emiljan Beqirat, a Lithuanian, "You have no moral values, scruples or compassion. Neither of you has any place in this or any other normal society."

In practice, Axhami and Beqirat found a warm welcome in some parts of this society. The shamelessness of the Punternet correspondents indicates that they, at any rate, would be affronted by any suggestion that they are not supremely normal. And yet without men like them, there would be no market for the traffickers and the women brought here to be raped, sold and imprisoned. One of their victims, a 19-year-old from Moldavia, has described how she was raped and subsequently installed in a City flat with six others. Their clients were generally married, and able to pay the women's pimps at least £100 per visit. The girls received nothing. It was after she appealed to one of these clients, a man in his 50s who gave her £200, that the girl escaped. The client had thought she was there voluntarily.

For example, they might look around the massage parlour, or brothel, and, as well as awarding marks for neatness, wonder: are these girls obviously held captive? In the recent raid on Cuddles, the Birmingham massage parlour where 19 women were immured, police had to use battering rams to knock down locked internal doors, windows had been boarded up, and an electric fence stopped anyone trying to escape from the back of the building. What kind of person lives in a house like this?

In reality, it is probably the extreme powerlessness of these complaisant, identity-free foreign girls, who could never talk back even if they wanted to, that renders them such appealing members of a trade in which women are commodities. The indulgence extended to glossier participants in the lap-dancing end of the sex industry cannot account for the thousands of law-abiding British men for whom the abuse of a trafficked teenager constitutes a satisfying sexual encounter. But perhaps the two things are not wholly unrelated.

Continues www.theguardian.com/society/2005/oct/20/penal.comment

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 14:48

And again, people are posting figures over a decade old. Why? What are you keen to deny?

Do those posters not believe that trafficked workers in other industries also exist? Trafficking has been a significant issue in other countries, not just the UK over the past decade.

So, are you also saying those countries are lying?

It seems some people are very keen to downplay the risks and harms of prostitution.

Good thing, though, that the UK government is fully aware of the situation.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/927111/FINAL-_2020_Modern_Slavery_Report_14-10-20.pdf

They also acknowledge just how hard it is to track this and make arrest. But at least they are NOT denying that human trafficking exists and that sexual exploitation is part of the issue.

There are also some ONS stats for 'Number of referrals to the National Referral Mechanism by exploitation type, UK, year ending December 2010 to year ending December 2018' for sexual exploitation was 1926.

Lower than expected yes, but the ONS preface their reports with "The hidden nature of modern slavery makes producing an accurate prevalence measure difficult."

Considering the very misleading information people are posting here, I guess it is quite clear to readers of the thread that if posters are denying that sex trafficking occurs, it is hardly likely that the posts stating 'no harm comes to prostitutes' etc, is also rather unreliable.

HecatesCatsInFancyHats · 14/05/2021 14:46

202 of them knew they would be working as prostitutes when they came to Britain.

Lucky them

jennywhitehorses · 14/05/2021 14:12

@Helleofabore

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied.

The obsession with trafficking started around 2000 with the George W Bush administration. Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, was a kind of personal pastor to President Bush. He is a fundamentalist and influenced Bush to spend millions of dollars countering 'trafficking' around the world.

In 2007, police forces across Britain started a wide-scale investigation into sex trafficking. Called Pentameter Two it included brothel raids. It resulted in 5 convictions for trafficking. In operations Pentameter One and Two over 1300 locations were raided. 255 women were 'rescued'. 16 were deported, 36 returned home, 37 accepted victim support services and 166 disappeared.

Project Acumen was set up by ACPO. Of the 210 migrants interviewed none was kidnapped or held hostage. 202 of them knew they would be working as prostitutes when they came to Britain.

See the Nick Davies 2009 Guardian article Inquiry Fails to Find Single Trafficker Who Forced Anybody Into Prostitution and the Jerry Markon 2007 Washington Post article Human Trafficking Evokes Outrage, Little Evidence. There is another article by Nick Davies called Prostitution and trafficking - the anatomy of a moral panic.

inigomontoyahwillcox · 14/05/2021 13:57

Mary Harrington is a great writer, just been reading some of her other stuff on unherd.com.

jennywhitehorses · 14/05/2021 13:39

@MargaritaPie

Except it doesn't. For whatever reason, countries that have introduced the Nordic model have made a point of ensuring sex workers are still committing a crime for working together. Women are still arrested for this except the media keeps this quiet and prints headlines like "people arrested in anti-trafficking raid!" to mislead people into thinking the arrests are related to trafficking (when in fact they are not).

Quite right, MargaritaPie. Did you know that the justice minister in Ireland, Frances Fitzgerald, doubled the penalties for 'brothel keeping' when the Nordic model was introduced? Also laws against soliciting/loitering were retained.

She was asked about it in parliament before the new law came in, so people knew about the problem but went ahead anyway.

Think about it. If you were justice minister and you wanted to get rid of prostitution, what would you say? We want the American model where both sex workers and their clients are arrested? Or the Nordic model, where you can pretend that you're shifting the burden of criminality from women on to men? That sounds a lot better doesn't it? But it's dishonest.

Helleofabore · 14/05/2021 10:48

2009 is a very long time ago. And we know that there are trafficked people working in different industries in the UK now.

I’d say anyone relying on this data would be mistaken or posting for an agenda that needs for trafficking to be denied.

WhatyoutalkingaboutWillis · 14/05/2021 09:48

Do you think these young girls being "sex workers" to get themselves through uni will be adding this "work" on their CV's when they start applying for jobs? If not, why not?

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 00:38

"What % of prostitution is not involving coercion in any way in the UK? What % of prostitutes actually have a choice?"

A 2009 investigation lasting 6 months involved all police forces raiding 822 brothels/flats/massage parlours (by surprise) all over Britain to find traffickers and victims. The result of that was they basically found squat- some police forces found noone to arrest at all, some women were charged with working together, some were charged for drugs or immigration offences.

guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

MargaritaPie · 14/05/2021 00:30

*"Let them work together for safety without fear of arrest.

Which could absolutely happen under the Nordic Model. Excellent."*

Except it doesn't. For whatever reason, countries that have introduced the Nordic model have made a point of ensuring sex workers are still committing a crime for working together. Women are still arrested for this except the media keeps this quiet and prints headlines like "people arrested in anti-trafficking raid!" to mislead people into thinking the arrests are related to trafficking (when in fact they are not).

The police will always use the wording "anti-trafficking raid" when they burst into a brothel and never "anti sex workers working together for safety raid", even though any arrests made tend to be made for the latter.

Helleofabore · 11/05/2021 17:38

So to say that the job requires a person to allow penetration is not true.

Most prostitutes are not injured by what they do.

What % of prostitution is not involving coercion in any way in the UK? What % of prostitutes actually have a choice?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 11/05/2021 15:43

jennywhitehorses

Most prostitutes are not injured by what they do. I know in your head you associate sex with aggression and death but there is no evidence that all prostitutes are harmed.

😂 I hope you didn't strain any muscles in that reach.

I know the difference between having sex when you're aroused and sex when you don't. I am also aware of the difference between having dinner at your leisure when you're hungry and being force-fed.
It's really not that difficult to comprehend.

Extract
Wolf Heide is a gynaecologist/ obstetrician who helps women in prostitution. He does medical exams and provides care.This is from his statement given to the Deutscher Bundestag in a hearing preceding the new law.

His statement in brief: The overuse and abuse of the women’s sexual organs leads to inflammations, STIs and beyond STIs, and of course this situation makes them much more vulnerable to STIs, as the usual resilience other adult women have to STIs (or in fact any other disease) is damaged: Bruising, tearing, abrasions in/on those organs, means the slightest infection will lead to illness, and in addition, those in street
prostitution are out at all times in very little clothing, miniskirts, thin stockings, which again harms, and then their general life style damages any immune-system a normal healthy adult has. (Obviously this will not be helped by condoms, as the overuse, abrasions and exposure to damaging surroundings etc. will continue.)

He also says that these inflammations often lead to damage to the internal reproductive organs, e.g. the fallopian tubes, and this means that the women become infertile, i.e. they won’t be able to have children if they ever want them later, a strong denial of their reproductive rights, and of health. This is especially true as the women are in prostitution throughout these illnesses, inflammations etc., which means the abuse and causes continue while they should be healing. It subjects them to intense pain and exacerbates the illnesses, wounds, inflammations.

A medical journal found that especially younger women under 20, without any health insurance, in streetprostitution, with hardly any knowledge of German, had an increased risk of STIs. (Ärztezeitung Nr. 62 vom 01. 02.2016 Seite 4;this is about a study by the German Robert Koch Institut from 2011, based on almost 10000 medical exams by 29 municipial health offices. The Robert Koch Institut (RKI) is roughly comparable to the Institut Pasteur)The prostitutes he sees suffer from chronic lower abdominal pain due to inflammations and to mechanical trauma that are hard to treat medically. Due to the high rents they have to continue to serve clients even while suffering from unbearable pain. They also suffer from stomach inflammations. They show premature ageing, a symptom of persistent permanent stress. In addition to the injuries to be expected from the overuse of the sexual organs there are those inflicted by punters on purpose.They are often subjected to late abortions which also carries risks of damaging their health, and they often do these in their home countries as Germany only permits abortions in the first 12 weeks, and the medical costs are high. It is not clear who makes the decision about the abortions. In addition the STIs also increase risks of damages to the women or to the fetus. He cites late miscarriages or severe disabilitites due to Sypilis, or of early miscarriage and sceptic reactions due to gonorrhoea.

According to his statement he had to write several medical notes for a pregnant woman who wanted to exit prostitution but wasn’t accepted in a specific welfare (Hartz IV) measure. It took three court cases to finally declare that it is inacceptable for a pregnant woman to work in prostitution (i.e. to expect her to be there)(Aktenzeichen Landessozialgericht Stuttgart: L 3 AS 4449/15 ER-B und L 3 AS 4450/ 15 B.)


Women are back in prostitution 3 days after giving birth, even while suffering from the usual injuries left by vaginal birth. Bing back in prostitution, with 15 to 30 buyers a day can leave lasting damages up to lasting incontinence.Women often hide their pregnancies in order to be safe from pressures from their envionment, in order to be able to work during pregnancy, in order not to be pushed into the special market for pregnant women.

In his estimation 90% of all the prostitutes he sees do not have any health insurance, findings also seen by a study of the Robert Koch Institut from 2014 (Ärztezeitung Nr. 62 01.04.2016 Seite 4), the reasons for this are lack of language skills and the costs.
The abuses lead to a high consumption of drugs / psychotropic medication.

Source: banishea.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/data-on-women-in-prostitution-in-germany-numbers-health-working-conditions/

Helleofabore · 11/05/2021 13:53

jennywhitehorses

And does sharing an opinion that a model is worthwhile exploring or that a piece of legislation is not progressing women mean that the motivation is shared as you imply?

I don't think so.

I find people to use that term 'ally' when really it is simply a moment of agreement from different points of view to be used by those who seek to shut down discussion.

If we turn it around, who agrees and benefits with your point of view? Are you an 'ally' to everyone who does? Everyone?