Nordic model demand in Daily Mail

Thanks @altforvarmt - isn't there a district in a northern English town, maybe Leeds, where it's been "decriminalised" with shocking results? Where is that do you know?

Oh, and the Daily Mail is the best place for the story. A middle-market publication with a huge readership (particularly online), plenty of whom are women.

From Yes, Minister (a comedy which was more of a documentary)
Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers:
- The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country;
- The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country;
- The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country;
- The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country;
- The Financial Times is read by people who own the country;
- The Morning Star is read by people who think the country ought to be run by another country;
- and The Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.

I'm not surprised this is a good article, BTW - Mary Harrington is a really good writer.

and the Nordic model would not given it opens women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes.

Can you be more specific about what you mean here.

I think you are right that there is no perfect legal/social solution, and even the best approach may have downsides. The best approach may not be the same in every place either, a country with a strong police force and social welfare may be able to implement models that won't work where there is little social welfare provision, or policing is inadequate. Those aren't necessarily simple problems to solve.

But in most western countries I think the Nordic model seems to be the most successful approach so far.

"This article reviews the key research that has been undertaken on the results of the Nordic Modell_ approach to prostitution in the countries in which it has been implemented, and provides a summary of the findings.
All of the studies show evidence of a significant reduction in men’s demand for prostitution. Although accurate estimates of the size of the population engaged in prostitution are difficult, the evidence suggests a reduction in the numbers involved over the medium and long term. Where the sex purchase ban is enforced, the sex trade becomes less viable and this discourages sex trafficking and pimping. One researcher went as far as to suggest that the sex purchase ban might be more effective in combating pimps and sex traffickers than laws that target them directly.
While there is no clear evidence that the police are violent towards those engaged in prostitution, they do tend to target undocumented migrants and report them to the immigration authorities for potential deportation. Clearly this is unacceptable and states need to provide better support and assistance to foreign nationals who have been used and abused in the sex trade within their territory.
All the studies indicate a very high rate of violence towards the people in prostitution, but there is no definitive evidence of any actual increase due to the sex purchase ban. Similarly claims that the sex purchase ban has driven prostitution underground and made it more dangerous are not supported by the research. Rather the evidence underlines the fact that prostitution is always dangerous.

nordicmodelnow.org/2019/12/22/has-the-nordic-model-worked-what-does-the-research-say/

@Peak2021 Why does the Nordic Model “open women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes” exactly? Is there evidence of that being a significant issue from other places where the NM has been implemented? Currently in the UK lots of acts around prostitution are illegal even if the act itself isn’t, like kerb crawling and pimping, so is reporting these illegal activities a key aspect of putting women at threat of violence currently? I’m keen to understand anything I might be missing.

I have never viewed women who enter prostitution as having had a totally free choice, other than a minuscule percentage. If it is not trafficking then it is economic coercion of sorts, given the poverty and low pay that exists in this country.

I'm not sure what the solution is to eradicating prostitution, or even if there is one, but decriminalisation as per Germany has not worked, and the Nordic model would not given it opens women to threats or actual violence if they report a man who uses prostitutes. More outreach work to support prostitutes and enable them to leave the work, and anything to stop websites which review prostitutes such as the one Harriet Harman campaigns against, seem two steps that can be taken.

I would encourage everyone to listen to the BBC Who Killed Emma? podcast to hear some stories from the frontline of this terrible industry.

I think it's great it's in the Mail, really, Quentin. Huge audience. Gets the issues out there. The fact that papers like the Guardian wouldn't touch this type of article is to their shame.

Great article, shame it's in the daily mail.
I did not realise what a high % of prostitutes come from romania those poor women

Thanks for posting. My Conservative MP is pretty good so I’ll write to him about this.

Thank you Arabella Trouble is too many think that the women involved are doing so with 100% free will, that making it legal will all be good. Ultimately though it is about throwing other women under the bus so they can think they are being progressive.

From north? Birth.

Men who have been raised since birth to know - not think, inherently know - that their every whim is more important than women’s health and needs, that’s who. Such relative importance is what we are all raised in from north, and we are saturated by those messages everywhere. I’ve only recently become aware of just how much more importance my dh and I both attach to my dh’s stories of the impacts of growing up in poverty, for instance, even when they are identical.

As for the right-on charity chuggers who have told me women are grateful to have this choice - what are their options, that this is their best choice? Why do we not see the lack of progression on economic choices for women since the times of the industrial revolution? Why does no one see that as shit? Make no mistake, women are under attack.

Nordic Model Now have information on writing to your MP:

nordicmodelnow.org/2020/12/30/ask-your-mp-to-support-women-and-vote-for-the-sexual-exploitation-bill/?fbclid=IwAR2eN4HV4JMER0VMxMkst3JqWemD2a1YhmGGwPyE0GwSwXsyDz7XhlNT_q0

And a 2 minute tool if you're pressed for time:

www.nmnow.org/support_women/find_your_mp

Thank you for posting. I have emailed my MP, not sure what I will get back, if anything. She is wholeheartedly TWAW.

I just dot not get it. Who would vote against making life better for abused women and girls? Who would actively advocate for less rights for workers? I am ashamed of the left I thought I belonged to. As I keep on saying, my politics have not moved one inch, the stuff I have always believed has not shifted. And yet I am no longer on the left.

Thanks, OP. I will write to my fucking useless MP.

I always think that the 'sex work is work' brigade needs to spend a few hours reading sites like UK Punting and realise that what they are advocating for is for actual human women to legitimately be reduced to objects that you might buy and then review on Amazon.

It's sick.

I've just noticed your user name, OP. Are you... Are you my wife?

I'm also planning to try to convince my MP that there is a link between the sexual assaults of girls in schools being documented on the everyone's invited website, and the pushing of the "sex work is work" line. Because to an immature, developing mind, if some women exist to serve men as sexual objects, they all do.

That's a great article. Covers a lot of bases. It's infuriating that "social justice warriors" - including the likes of Amnesty, which fell some time ago - are doing the work of exploitative capitalists for them:

"These hypocritical Leftists claim to oppose untrammelled capitalism and stand up for the exploited.
Yet they have come out all guns blazing in support of an industry whose central 'product' is the industrial-scale rape of impoverished women for the profit of monsters like Jurgen Rudloff.
The experience of Germany shows decriminalisation creates a nightmare of trafficking, violence and misery.
Holbeck shows the devastating effect on communities of legalised street prostitution: squalid litter, unsafe streets and frightened schoolgirls.
And that's before you get to the hell endured by the prostitutes themselves. And yet, for these culture warriors, anyone who doesn't abide by the mantra 'Sex work is work' is a bigot and reactionary."

After my posts last night on the sex surrogacy thread, I was going to start one about the Nordic Model, so thank you. I will be writing to my MP about this, but I need to do some more reading around the issue first.

I continue to be saddened by the "sex work is work" trope, and the fact that it is supported as a good thing for both parties. I think there is an element of 'lost cause' on an individual level, but hopefully legally change can be implemented.

Thanks for posting this, LadyVymes. SistersUncut has never been pro-women afaik, but it’s sickening to see former friends like Amnesty and trade unions on the sex industry’s side too.

From the Daily Mail report:
Researchers also found that after Norway introduced a ban on buying sex, street prostitution fell between 45 and 60 per cent, with no evidence of it moving 'underground'.

By contrast, in Germany, selling and buying sex have been legal since 2002. But this hasn't caused trafficking to disappear – in fact quite the reverse. By 2007, the UN had recognised Germany as a top destination for victims of trafficking.

A 2012 study of 150 countries showed that decriminalising prostitution results in more prostitution – which means more trafficked women. Whenever something is legalised, the implication is that society condones it and so more people do it. And the need for reform is not just about trafficking.

Today, prostitution in Germany is an industry thought to be worth about £11 billion a year. Ten-storey 'mega-brothels' offer a queasy kaleidoscope of sexual 'services'. And the number of prostitutes has mushroomed – there are an estimated 400,000 women working in the German sex industry, attracting punters from all over the world.

When something is suspiciously cheap and plentiful, it's often thanks to miserable workers in cruel sweatshops. So it is with Germany's supposedly safe and decriminalised sex industry.