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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help explain non binary

386 replies

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 17:09

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase.

I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there.

My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

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midgedude · 17/04/2021 22:04

Oh the poor thing, such a hard time

You love her, she's great as she is, she doesn't need to change to be perfect to you

R0wantrees · 17/04/2021 22:02

I don’t know WTF is on TikTok as that is all she uses and obviously has no social media.

There are some very concerning things on TikTok. Parents/carers really need to be on top of what their children are viewing.

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 22:00

@FrankensteinIsTheMonster

Why is an 11 year old even interested in discussing breastfeeding and cervixes? She needs some age-appropriate interests.
A lot of this is viral on TikTok I’ve looked myself
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FrankensteinIsTheMonster · 17/04/2021 21:57

Why is an 11 year old even interested in discussing breastfeeding and cervixes? She needs some age-appropriate interests.

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:55

She really struggles to make and maintain friendships and struggles with bullying at school too which I think is why she has fallen into this. The toilets are just many on a long list of things I’m worried about. She has recently adapted the terminology ‘cervix havers’ and ‘chest feeding’ and I don’t even know where to begin with that? I don’t know WTF is on TikTok as that is all she uses and obviously has no social media. My Mum is just saying she thinks it’s a phase but it’s startling. I want to have a conversation with my Mum about everything too as she has admitted these are issues she knows nothing about but again... it’s a minefield.

She hasn’t started her periods yet so I’m unsure if that will help or encourage the situation.

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Shizuku · 17/04/2021 21:52

@Deliriumoftheendless

This child is no more vulnerable than any other child- and probably significantly less than many.

OP are you able to chat with her? She sounds like she’s embarking on a period of trying to work out who she is/what her place in the world is. Like most of us do when we’re young. She may find it helpful to discuss it all with you, as a semi outsider.

"This child is no more vulnerable than any other child- and probably significantly less than many. "

That's a very reckless claim. All the evidence points to the opposite:

www.forbes.com/sites/dawnstaceyennis/2020/07/15/largest-survey-of-transgender-and-nonbinary-youth-says-more-than-half-seriously-considered-suicide/?sh=2449aa0e3404

FrankensteinIsTheMonster · 17/04/2021 21:51

It's funny how autism interacts with the gender identity stuff… I've come across disproportionately large numbers of self-identifying gender-diverse people in autistic groups and disproportionately large numbers of autistic people in LGBTQetc. groups, but then there are other autistic people like me, for whom autistic thinking styles lead to great difficulty with accepting the social necessity of lying about whether people are men or women, and with accepting being lied to.

Shizuku · 17/04/2021 21:48

This thread should be in LGBT children, so I've asked Mumsnet to move it.

OhDear2200 · 17/04/2021 21:45

A 11 year old is NOT vulnerable to their parents questioning something as serious as what the OP’s sister is saying. She’s 11 Ffs not 21.

I would be doing some serious review of what she is watching online and finding some other balanced things for her to watch.

Good luck op.

Ikeameatballs · 17/04/2021 21:44

Ah, I now see that she is autistic. I think this adds another level of complexity as she is likely to have obsessive tendencies AND is likely to be feeling increasing pressure from social interactions with real life peers as well as the fear of puberty etc.

IvyTwines2 · 17/04/2021 21:43

@Tal45

First there was punk, then there was goth, then there was emo and now there is non binary. It's what you are if you're a confused teen and don't really know/understand who you are but want to be part of something (or an older person desperately trying to fit in/be on trend). Gender is a social construct, that means it's made up by people/society so anything with the word gender in it is also made up. Boys liking pink doesn't need a label.
Many of those youth cultures provided teenagers, especially girls, with a way to opt out of the pressures of a very sexualising mainstream culture while remaining 'cool'. Similarly with The Smiths: looking back, you feel a lot of their appeal was the way it gave teenagers permission to be ok with being bookish, awkward, gay or celibate.

But none of these youth cults endorsed and entrenched conservative, regressive sexist stereotypes in the way 'non-binary'/gender ideology does, and the most lasting thing you might do to yourself physically back then was get tattoos, a few piercings or - at the extreme end - vampire fang implants.

Ikeameatballs · 17/04/2021 21:43

I would try to demonstrate to her that being a girl/woman is compatible with any behaviour/dress/role/occupation but that she has a sexed body and her sex is female.

At 11 I do wonder if, as well as social media, there is perhaps a fear of puberty both in a physical sense and a social transition to adulthood which is driving this?

I would suggest that your parents reduce and monitor her social media use whilst being as generally supportive of her as possible but not changing pronouns.

Soontobe60 · 17/04/2021 21:41

By choosing to use ‘mixed sex’ toilets she needs to know she is putting herself at risk as there are men who will use these toilets to gain unchallenged access to females. She’s 11. She knows she’s female. She may well pretend that she’s neither male or female because tic tock videos are heavily influencing other 11 yr olds into this madness.
She is vulnerable because she is an 11 year old girl, and is autistic. Not because she’s decided she’s ‘non binary’.
The urban myths around ‘trans’ children being rejected by their families is just that. Children whose parents will not affirm their trans identities are not rejecting their children, they are just not being forced into going along with this ideology.

OP, talk to your sister. Ask her to explain to you what she actually means, what difference it will make to her life. Id bet my house on it that she can’t give a logical explanation.

R0wantrees · 17/04/2021 21:38

They have made themselves very vulnerable by telling you, and if they have trans friends, they are probably well aware that there is a high risk of significant family rejection.

Unfortunately this is what many children are being told on internet forums.
It is a very serious Safeguarding and Child Protection issue when strangers convince children that they will be rejected by their parents/carers.

FrankensteinIsTheMonster · 17/04/2021 21:38

They have made themselves very vulnerable by telling you

Vulnerable to what? Being disobeyed when they tell others how to refer to them?

R0wantrees · 17/04/2021 21:31

Its important for children this young to have adults that can explain clearly that sex (female/male, girl/boy, women/men) is not the same as 'gender identity'.

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:30

Don’t know what happened there! Was supposed to say big daily struggles*.

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R0wantrees · 17/04/2021 21:29

Toilets are provided on the basis of sex. Female toilets have cubicals with tampon/towel dipensers etc. Male toilets have urinals.

Female toilets can be used by all female people (girls and women) including those with a non-binary gender identity.

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:28

Sorry I forgot a massively relevant point and also not to drip feed she is autistic. High functioning but still has. Oh daily struggles.

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Deliriumoftheendless · 17/04/2021 21:25

This child is no more vulnerable than any other child- and probably significantly less than many.

OP are you able to chat with her? She sounds like she’s embarking on a period of trying to work out who she is/what her place in the world is. Like most of us do when we’re young. She may find it helpful to discuss it all with you, as a semi outsider.

OldCrone · 17/04/2021 21:25

My sister says she isn’t old enough to decide what her gender is so she’s non-binary.

You could tell her that she doesn't have to decide what her 'gender' is (choosing to be non-binary is deciding to have a gender of non-binary) and she can just be a girl. So she should use girls'/women's toilets. Explain that most women don't 'have a gender' either and that they're just women.

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:24

@TheFleegleHasLanded

‘Non binary toilets’?

What fresh hell is this?!

Sorry not sure if that’s the actual name what’s just what she refers to them as Grin

Toilets for both males and females. Our local shopping centre has female, male, disabled and mixed sex toilets.

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TheFleegleHasLanded · 17/04/2021 21:22

‘Non binary toilets’?

What fresh hell is this?!

Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:18

I haven’t seen her since she announced she’s NB either as I don’t live with them and obviously it’s been lockdown. She has no idea of what my opinions on the subject are and I guess I’ve been asked to speak to her because whatever my parents say will be met with an eye roll. I just don’t even know where to start

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Educationneeded · 17/04/2021 21:15

My sister says she isn’t old enough to decide what her gender is so she’s non-binary. It’s concerning as she’s saying she wants to use non binary toilets, which seem to be appearing everywhere now, in our city anyway. She’s 11 years old, none of us feel comfortable with her using a toilet where she could encounter a man who could potentially be using it to take advantage but at the age of 11 she should be able to go to the toilet alone. I don’t think it’s as simple as just ‘loving her’. We need to be sensible about this, the world is a scary place but we also don’t want to stop her from expressing herself.

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