Page 10 | Help explain non binary

Educationneeded · 2021-04-17T16:09:59+00:00

Hi, thread was inspired by the other about coming out as GC. I have name changed as I’m not ready to be outed so just incase. I am GC, although only have expressed my views to close friends and family. My younger sister is due to go up to high school in September and six months ago came out as non binary. We all believe this decision was heavily influenced by TikTok and the wokeness on there. My parents don’t really understand. My Dad just rolls his eyes but my Mum wants to learn however doesn’t know much on the subject and has asked me to talk to my sister. I have no idea how to even approach the topic with her. Anyone have any guidance? Anything I can tell or show my Mum? I’ve read a lot on trans and women’s right but not much on non binary and don’t really know where to start with this minefield. I guess I’d like to educate myself too.

AssassinatedBeauty · 27/04/2021 14:47

@BadGherkin

No - actually my SEX is female.

I don’t have a gender identity.

Why are you trying to force a gender identity on others?

Quite. I know my sex, I don't have a gender identity.

To tell me I must have a gender identity is to try to tell me I must believe in an ideology that I don't believe in.

BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:44

No - actually my SEX is female.

I don’t have a gender identity.

Why are you trying to force a gender identity on others?

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:44

@Shizuku

"I want to be called a woman because of my sex."

The fact that "woman" feels correct to you, means that you have a female gender identity.

Sorry, but I still don't understand. It isn't a feeling as far as I'm concerned. I want to be called a woman simply because I consider it to be a biological fact.

I can recognise that it doesn't seem to be about biology for some people, but I'm afraid that's where my understanding ends. If "being a woman" isn't about biological sex and isn't about stereotypes, what does it actually mean?

I am not trying to prove you wrong, I actually want to get my head around this. Two of my dd's friends identify as non-binary. I wish them no harm and I'm happy to use their chosen pronouns if it makes them happy. I just genuinely have no clue what people understand by the term "gender identity" if they are not referring to biological sex or gender stereotypes. It honestly feels like the Emperor's New Clothes to me...like it doesn't actually exist but nobody is brave enough to say so.

I want to understand. I don't want anyone to suffer. But I want someone to explain what they're actually talking about without just reducing it to the circular argument that someone is a woman because they feel like one. How do people know what feeling like a woman is if there is no definition of what it means to be a woman?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:39

@BadGherkin

Who made you the arbiter of gender identity or sex class?

I don’t have a gender identity - I don’t identify with a “feminine” gender or a “masculine” gender.

I am a woman (XX of the sex class female).

The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity.

"The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity."

It does if you don't feel it is in any way wrong for you. And you don't, so your gender identity is female.

BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:35

Who made you the arbiter of gender identity or sex class?

I don’t have a gender identity - I don’t identify with a “feminine” gender or a “masculine” gender.

I am a woman (XX of the sex class female).

The statement “I am a woman” in no way designates any gender identity.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:33

"I want to be called a woman because of my sex."

The fact that "woman" feels correct to you, means that you have a female gender identity.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:23

@Shizuku

"But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?"

You said you would be more comfortable being acknowledged as a woman rather than non-binary. So you identify as a woman.

No, I want to be called a woman because of my sex. I have no gender identity, I don't even know what gender identity means. It means nothing to me.

I do genuinely want to understand. Can you try to explain what you mean, please?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:22

@BadGherkin

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.

The fact that no part of you disagrees with the statement "you are a woman" means you have a female gender identity.

Wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 27/04/2021 14:22

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.

This, with bells on. I don't need to identify as a woman, in the same way I don't have to identify as having green eyes.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:21

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BadGherkin · 27/04/2021 14:17

I, and many other natal women, do not “identify” as a women - we just are women.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:16

"But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?"

You said you would be more comfortable being acknowledged as a woman rather than non-binary. So you identify as a woman.

acatcalledjohn · 27/04/2021 14:15

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FrankensteinIsTheMonster · 27/04/2021 14:02

If your idea of what makes you a man or a woman is based neither on biology nor on cultural gender roles as externally expressed, then what is it based on? What is it that a person is looking at in other people of the gender they align with and saying "that's like me"? It has to be something that can be perceived from the outside, otherwise they wouldn't know if it's like them or not like them.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 14:01

@Shizuku

" I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them."

That's not what non binary means. It's not about what gender stereotypes you are into - some non-binary people are overtly masculine, some are overtly feminine, some are androgynous and there's every variation in between.

It's therefore not about behaviour, it's about identity. So just as you identify as a woman regardless of you behaviour, so a non binary person identifies as non binary regardless of their behaviour.

But as per my previous post, please explain what identifying as a woman actually means?

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 14:00

" I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them."

That's not what non binary means. It's not about what gender stereotypes you are into - some non-binary people are overtly masculine, some are overtly feminine, some are androgynous and there's every variation in between.

It's therefore not about behaviour, it's about identity. So just as you identify as a woman regardless of you behaviour, so a non binary person identifies as non binary regardless of their behaviour.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 13:57

@Shizuku, please can you explain what "gender identity" is, if not just gender stereotypes, because I am genuinely really struggling to understand this.

Are you able to explain exactly what you mean by "gender identity" in terms that I can actually understand, without reducing it to the abstract notion of "feeling like a woman"/"feeling like a man", or a preference for particular pronouns? This is a genuine question and I do want to understand, but I have not yet been able to find any meaning in the term "gender identity" beyond the stereotypes. Please do explain.

SirVixofVixHall · 27/04/2021 13:56

@Justhadathought

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

Absolutely. My heterosexual male farmer friend reads Vogue and World of Interiors . I am female but good at a lot of traditionally “male” practical things. My DH does almost all of the cooking. Personality and tastes vary. Everyone is “non binary” and it is therefore nonsensical.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 13:55

@334bu

A transwoman won't be passed over for a promotion because she's pregnant."

Nor will an infertile woman or a menopausal woman.

Rubbish.
1 Unless the infertile woman has an infertile sticker on her forehead, she will be assumed just like all other females of potentially becoming pregnant.
2 As for menopausal women, they get hit by the second caring whammy, elderly relatives. I know if many women whose careers have been blighted by this. So denied promotion because you might get pregnant then have to tailor work around caring for elderly relatives.

"1 Unless the infertile woman has an infertile sticker on her forehead, she will be assumed just like all other females of potentially becoming pregnant."

So, she's in the same position as a passing trans woman.

"2 As for menopausal women, they get hit by the second caring whammy, elderly relatives. I know if many women whose careers have been blighted by this. So denied promotion because you might get pregnant then have to tailor work around caring for elderly relatives."

Indeed, I am currently caring for an extremely elderly parent (101), and have been for the last 2 years. I have moved in with them, and they need someone here 24/7. Keeping my job going is a challenge.

Shizuku · 27/04/2021 13:53

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Shizuku · 27/04/2021 13:50

@GNCQ

Gender ideology myth number three Because some people's gender identity falls outside of rigid sex stereotypes, that means people can change sex.

Leads to in practice: male people in women only spaces.

Wow - there really are still people out there who don't know that gender identity and gender stereotypes are 2 different things. Fascinating.

paralysedbyinertia · 27/04/2021 13:21

@Justhadathought

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

I agree with you that few people will conform to all gender stereotypes, so yes, I imagine that most people would probably fit that description.

However, I don't want to be called non-binary, and I don't want to use the pronouns they/them. I would like instead to be acknowledged as a woman, using she/her pronouns, who does not buy into the gender stereotypes and does not wish to be defined by them.

It is not for other people to define how I should do "being a woman". I will do it my own way.

Beowulfa · 27/04/2021 12:35

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'?

Everyone who doesn't actively embrace stereotypes from a 1950s sitcom during every waking hour is non-binary. But then we'd have to invent more sub-categories to make people feel special and interesting.

Justhadathought · 27/04/2021 10:19

Aren't the vast majority of people 'non binary'? If non binary means being in possession of a range of talents, skills, attributes, characteristics and preferences?

Who conforms to every gendered expectation - except maybe those who are forced into certain roles through culture?

I post on two forums: this one - which is predominantly female, and is widely considered to be a parenting website ( even though much wider in range than that as we all know); and one which, apart from me, is almost entirely populated by men ( & a large percentage of gay men for some reason). It is an architecture and urbanism forum.

As an example.

JoodyBlue · 26/04/2021 22:59

@Educationneeded

Hi. Not sure if anyone is interested but I managed to have a chat with her.

She says she is not a girl and does not wish to be called one. She wants to buzz all of her hair off so she’s like our brother. I told her she can be whoever she wants to be and we will always love her, but she will always be a female and there’s nothing wrong with that. She plays a sport and is now saying she wants to move over to the boys team as she isn’t a girl (but if she’s non binary doesn’t that mean she isn’t a boy either?). I have to admit I’m even more confused now than before as I thought she was saying she didn’t wish to identify as either but now it appears she just wants to do things boys do.

It sounds to me as if she is reacting against what she perceives is the female role. Frankly, at 11, who wouldn't these days? This is incredibly common for girls approaching puberty. My advice would be to reassure her you love her, support her image change. Call her by her chosen name. Don't give too much attention to the changes either. I suspect things will resolve in time.

It is worth noting however, that by stating the category "non-binary", the implication is that everyone else is one of the two binaries. It isn't a tenable place from which to argue really. But many 11 year olds aren't yet mature enough to understand that.

This is partly why older women are making arguments that communications to children/young people need to be more concerned with safeguarding.

I'm glad she has such a supportive, kind, and loving sibling and parents. You might look at a film called "Trans Kids - its time to talk" featuring Stella O'Malley who talks in a balanced way about her own feelings at this age. Not disimilar perhaps. Good luck.