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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FFS Woodcraft Folk

37 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/04/2021 13:09

This is entirely expected of them but:

(Excerpts - I will link to docs at end so people can check my selective quoting)

From Trans Inclusion Q&A

  1. Should I use the term ‘the gender identity they were born with?'

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is,
therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

  1. What is the difference between gender expression and gender identity?

Gender is commonly used to refer to many different elements which can cause confusion.
Gender identity is part of what makes up gender: it is what we understand our own identity to be. Gender expression is another part and refers to how some of the ways we dress,
behave or decorate our bodies are seen as being aligned to a particular gender within a
certain culture. For example in some cultures the wearing of a long and flowing single piece
of clothing may variously be seen as feminine, masculine or not gendered at all. As such there is not necessarily an alignment between gender expression and gender identity.

Gender is also sometimes used as an equivalent to sex in legal terms. Sex/legal gender is the legal recognition given to this part of your identity, and currently in the UK this is
recorded in one of two categories: male or female. Usually this is declared on a birth
certificate based on the judgement of a doctor based on your external genitalia, or may be
recognised through a Gender Recognition Certificate for those who have undertaken a legal process to recognise that their gender identity is not the one assigned at birth.
Sex refers to a combination of physical and biological characteristics such as external and
internal genitalia, chromosomes and hormone levels. There are many variations in the
combinations of these, though usually medical practitioners seek to divide individuals into
one of three categories: female, intersex and male. Trans adults may choose to undergo a
medical transition which might include surgery or hormones to change some of the elements
which make up their biological sex. For trans children and young people in the UK currently,
the only medical intervention available to them is puberty blockers - medicine which
temporarily prevents the progression of puberty and the changes to genitalia and hormones
which develop during this phase of development.

[Followed, of course, by the gender unicorn]

  1. Should I tell parents if their child is sharing a room with a trans child?

If you disclose an individual’s trans identity without their consent you could be breaking the
law. You should be open with parents/guardians about the sleeping arrangements at camp
e.g. whether it is in small or large tents, large dorms, small rooms or a shared hall, and
explain how you have involved the children in making these decisions. You should make it clear to parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable
to share a room or tent with.

  1. Should I tell parents that their child is in a mixed gender dorm?

You should be open with parents/guardians about the sleeping arrangements at camp e.g.
whether it is in small or large tents, large dorms, small rooms or a shared hall, and explain
how you have involved the children in making these decisions. You should make it clear to
parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable to share
a room or tent with.

From here:
woodcraft.org.uk/trans-inclusion

OP posts:
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HopeClearwater · 16/04/2021 00:18

@Defaultname 🤣

NiceGerbil · 15/04/2021 23:45

Hope & default they always were that way round here! So no surprise.

NiceGerbil · 15/04/2021 23:44

Tambourina

In short (very short)

They changed from single sex to single gender quietly, then claimed they'd always been single gender
They are violating their right to be a single sex org as they are now admitting some boys and excluding some girls
Their charter as a charity is around girls and was written yonks ago so refers to females. They are violating it.
Unlike mixed sex orgs their (supposed) single sex status makes them a choice for certain religious groups.
Unlike mixed sex orgs they have no materials, risk assessments etc around things being mixed sex (obviously) and including for camps
They say there is no need to do any as trans girls are girls
They won't say if a child is trans (fair enough, privacy) but that includes going on camp and sharing accommodation
Guides goes from 4ish to 18
Obviously if you get male and female teens sharing overnight accommodation then well we've all been teens! Guides say they don't have to even think about this as trans girls are girls :/
Obviously girls might have sex but the risk of pregnancy is a biggy.

So yeah not good.

Oh and they sacked a leader who was concerned and wouldn't back off when they gave their (pointless) answers.

Oh and they haven't been transparent at all. They really should have on their front page etc. GG is for any child who identifies as a girl.

Defaultname · 15/04/2021 22:42

@HopeClearwater

Haven’t they renamed themselves Woodcraft Folx yet?
Wokecraft Folk, surely?
HopeClearwater · 15/04/2021 22:28

Haven’t they renamed themselves Woodcraft Folx yet?

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 22:18

Initially the policy was to ease out girls who identified as 'trans'. So only of benefit to male children and adults who identified as 'trans' and wanted to be included in Guiding.

Tambourina · 15/04/2021 22:11

So it was a forward step for the trans people in the guide movement, but a backward (and potentially dangerous) step for all the 1000s of female guides and leaders.

Beyond awful really.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 22:00

Guides implemented policies in 2018 (?) which removed sex based protections for girls and leaders with 'trans inclusive' policies. Leaders who raised the Safeguarding issues were in some cases sacked.

Helen Watts (former Rainbow leader) spoke out about what happened:

womansplaceuk.org/2020/07/08/girlguiding-campfires-crafts-compelled-belief/

Katie Alcock (also a guide leader) has a case in progress too.

Beamur · 15/04/2021 21:59

Guides have introduced trans inclusive policies which potentially could mean mixed sex units sharing accommodation at events like camps. The controversy being that parents would not be informed if their girl children would be with male bodied children. Tents/showers etc.
Although they have rowed back on requiring volunteers and members identifying as male to leave.

Tambourina · 15/04/2021 21:42

What have the guides done please?

NiceGerbil · 15/04/2021 21:26

At least with WCF/ scouts they are mixed sex.

What the guides did was ridiculous

Beamur · 15/04/2021 21:20

What I find curious about the inclusion policies for organisations like the WCF where children are involved, is the absolute denial that there might be any safeguarding issues for the wider community when you have vulnerable children involved.
I'm not for a minute suggesting this means you exclude that child, but to simply say they pose no harm is naive.
For example, if you have a child that is self harming, or has been abused in some way - this may mean that they display some behaviours that leaders need to be aware of and anticipate in order to prevent harm to others arising - such as when arranging appropriate groups for sleeping or working closely together.

WarOnWomen · 15/04/2021 21:16

As opposed to what? Internal genitalia?

I may be mistaken but think this was them referencing intersex. The usually, I mean.

Defaultname · 15/04/2021 21:11

@WarOnWomen

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is, therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

What the actual fuck.

"on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.".

Got to laugh.
As opposed to what? Internal genitalia?

whatisheupto · 15/04/2021 21:03

What the actual fuck.

WarOnWomen · 15/04/2021 20:53

@NiceGerbil

Reading again that also puts gender id as more important than and superseding biology.

The baby can't tell us and so we guess and make do until they can.

It's the idea that babies have a gender identity. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

NiceGerbil · 15/04/2021 20:48

Reading again that also puts gender id as more important than and superseding biology.

The baby can't tell us and so we guess and make do until they can.

WarOnWomen · 15/04/2021 20:47

If you disclose an individual’s trans identity without their consent you could be breaking the
law.

That's for people who have GRC, not for children. It might upset them and the parents but I don't think any laws can be broken.

There are so many inconsistencies in the policy that my head can't cope.

WarOnWomen · 15/04/2021 20:41

Newborn babies lack the communication skills to tell us what their gender identity is,
therefore doctors assign a child a sex/gender on the basis of, usually, external genitalia.

What the actual fuck.

DuckonaBike · 15/04/2021 20:38

I’ve been involved with WCF for a few years and in my experience all the sleeping arrangements at camps and hostels have been single sex - separate tents / dorms for boys and girls.

However this guidance suggests that they might not stick to this if there was a trans child. Which is depressing and irresponsible. I hope people would exercise common sense in practice but there’s no guarantee.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/04/2021 20:27

In a way it's the liberalness that concerns me. It's very exclusionary for kids who dont feel able to speak up and say they are uncomfortable sharing sleeping / washing / toileting with the opposite sex,.or for kids whose parents wouldn't let them for whatever the reason.

The problem with the trans inclusion stuff is that it then actually denies that the sexes are being mixed which makes it even harder for girls in the organisation to express their discomfort.

OP posts:
YukoandHiro · 15/04/2021 20:15

With WCF they always do mixed and the main risk is not to do with trans rights and GC issues but very underage consensual sex. I'd never heard of WCF until uni, when I met three girls who had all lost their virginity v young on camp. Different parts of the country. No abuse involved but incredibly liberal attitudes to teen sex.

MrsAudreyShapiro · 15/04/2021 20:07

NiceGerbil I always think people who write stuff like that have never been at the birth of a child and have never been to register a birth either.

AnotherLass · 15/04/2021 20:03

I went to Woodcraft as a kid in the 80s and it was normal to have mixed sex tents and dorms. Whatever your views on it, in this instance it isn't due to gender ID ideology.

The pushing of destructive ideology is very depressing though. There are gender critical people in Woodies, but they're obviously losing.

MichelleScarn · 15/04/2021 20:00

You should make it clear to
parents/guardians that children will be sharing based on who they feel comfortable to share
a room or tent with
and if they say they don't want to share with someone of the opposite sex, are they re-educated or asked to leave?

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