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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

School Transgender Policy

58 replies

WhoWants2Know · 15/04/2021 09:52

I got an email this morning with my eldest's school's new transgender policy. Complete with "assigned at birth", students choosing their changing rooms, and all of it will be taught in PSHE. The school wants to achieve a "Rainbow Flag Award".

It's not that I would want trans kids to be bullied. I feel that they are presenting an idea as a fact, and removing the choice from children who don't want to change with a opposite-bodied child.

It was presented as a done deal. Is this just every school now? Is there any point in responding?

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Clymene · 16/04/2021 09:49

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SafeSpacer · 16/04/2021 09:46

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R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 15:22

And noone can ask the obvious question. How did we get here???

NEU had the answer in 2019 in the headline of their research. Unfortunately many, including teaching unions, have been able/willing to join the dots.

17-01-2019
'It's just everywhere - sexism in schools'
The results of UK Feminista and NEU’s groundbreaking study are clear: schools, education bodies and Government must take urgent action to tackle sexism in schools. "It's just everywhere" is a study on sexism in schools and how we tackle it.
neu.org.uk/advice/its-just-everywhere-sexism-schools

Clymene · 15/04/2021 14:41

It's not just sexual abuse of teachers going on in schools, it's sexual abuse of schoolgirls.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/nudes-porn-abuse-the-toxic-culture-in-uk-classrooms-fl3m7wjmg

Any policy that puts schoolgirls at even greater risk of abuse is a failure of their responsibility to keep those girls safe. Ask what risk assessments they've carried out. I bet the answer is zero.

WoolOfBat · 15/04/2021 14:39

I am confused now, are we allowed to gate keeping trans status and only admit the “worthy” trans girls who fulfill certain criteria?

I thought that we needed to believe everyone who said that they were trans and take their word for it? There are many trans women with a high internet profile who seem to value their more masculine attributes (beards etc) and argue that this in no way is changing the fact that they irrevocably are women.

Are trans supporters on this thread saying that those trans women not are women?

RedDogsBeg · 15/04/2021 14:33

The Government ruled out Self-Id, so how can a school have a policy of Self-Id?

No-one under 18 is eligible for a GRC, therefore they have not changed the sex marker on their Birth Certificate, therefore under the Equality Act the comparator for discrimination is against a person of the same sex, so if Billy the Troublemaker is not permitted access to the female toilets and changing rooms as he is male then neither is any other male.

Gender Identity is NOT a protected characteristic despite numerous attempts by certain organisations to state in defiance of the Law that it is.

RedDogsBeg · 15/04/2021 14:25

@FrancesGumm

And what about for example like Phillip Bunce, but some days Pippa Bunce person - so presumably the boy teenager may only feel like a girl on a Tuesday (which happens to be PE day).
Indeed, gender fluidity in all its glory. Some days the girl genes are in the ascendant and other days the boy genes are in the ascendant and belief in this is sacrosanct, must not be questioned. What could possibly go awry?
QuarantineQueen · 15/04/2021 14:24

If you have a school policy based on self-ID, you can't discriminate. So yes, once that policy is in place you have to let Billy the troublemaker into the girls room if he decides he's trans that day.
If your policy isn't based on self ID, what are you basing it on? 'Undergoing treatment'? What does that mean? We are told we can't differentiate between people who are socially and medically transitioning or even whether they have any intention to medically transition.
Third spaces make sense. Allowing trans teens to use the accessible toilet that is self-contained - makes sense. And, incidentally, in every school I have ever worked in, and for every transpupil I have ever taught - has worked very well.
This doesn't.
I'd also be interested to know how many transboys actually want to use the boys toilets and changing rooms. I suspect very few. Are we going to force them to use them, since we are now defining such spaces by gender identity rather than sex? And since, you know, transboys are boys... I'm fairly sure the transboys are ending up as the most vulnerable in this situation.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 15/04/2021 14:23

And noone can ask the obvious question. How did we get here???

FrancesGumm · 15/04/2021 14:11

And what about for example like Phillip Bunce, but some days Pippa Bunce person - so presumably the boy teenager may only feel like a girl on a Tuesday (which happens to be PE day).

WhoWants2Know · 15/04/2021 14:11

The Rainbow Flag award is delivered by the Kite Trust, but on their website I don't see the packs that they are using.

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Erkrie · 15/04/2021 13:23

And not just their feelings. I can easily imagine daft teenagers of both sexes daring each other to go into the wrong changing rooms and tell any teacher who tries to take action that they are trans, whether or not they are. Have the people drawing up these instructions ever met any actual teenagers

That has happened a few times at my dd's school in the girls changing room. The loudest girls deal with it and throw them out, (they won't put up with it) but it's more problematic for the quieter girls, like my DD, who are too scared to say a word. Obviously over the last year they haven't been using the changing rooms because of covid, but I'm sure the problem won't go away as we get back to normal again.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 13:21

I find it amazing that with everything that is going on about sexual abuse in Universities at the moment that these policies are even considered as reasonable

Also the sexual abuse of girls and female teaching staff in schools.

toffeebutterpopcorn · 15/04/2021 13:19

And how many schools don’t have libraries? And this is how money is being spent?

gottakeeponmovin · 15/04/2021 13:18

I find it amazing that with everything that is going on about sexual abuse in Universities at the moment that these policies are even considered as reasonable

CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 13:18

Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

I think of this often!

CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 13:17

@Thecatonthemat

But what is a genuine trans girl? As opposed to a not genuine one? I am confounded by these , as the whole thing hinges on deception or, in the case of adults , a legal fiction.
If you say you are trans, you are trans. As far as I can tell it's the act of stating it that conveys the status. The alternative is that there is some sort of objective and definable criteria. No-one can agree what these should be.

There is the criteria for gender dysphoria (which is problematic in itself as it relies massively on sex stereotypes) but most activists argue that gender dysphoria should not be necessary to be trans.

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 13:16

I understand that a child may change their uniform and name and pronouns, but that won't necessarily change the way their opposite sex classmates feel about being nude in their presence.

The school are in in breach of their statuatory responsibilities.
Contact Safe School Alliance who can assist. If not immediately resolved it is likely a matter for OFSTED.

CardinalLolzy · 15/04/2021 13:14

No one has suggested you just let any teenage boy say "Hey Miss, I feel like a girl today" and they just walk into the girl's changing rooms.

This is demonstrably false. Lots of people are saying that.

If a trans girl is not allowed to be believed by saying "I feel like a girl today", I'd be interested to hear which words in which order would be believed and acted on.
Because they will become the words that are used.

Suggesting that trans people change their appearance, name, or self-referring language so gatekeepers "believe" them (as though it's somehow possible for someone to say they are trans and not be trans?? ) is really dodgy territory and not something I advocate for at all.

andyoldlabour · 15/04/2021 13:11

Shizuku

"We're talking about someone who has changed their name, has asked for female pronouns to be used, is wearing the girl's uniform, is living socially as a girl and is possibly also under the care of a gender specialist."

And who is a fully intact male, who should never be allowed to change with young females.
Anyone who cannot see what is wrong with a young, fully intact male being allowed to change with young females should be investigated.
Have you heard of Jessica Yaniv?

Thecatonthemat · 15/04/2021 13:07

But what is a genuine trans girl? As opposed to a not genuine one? I am confounded by these , as the whole thing hinges on deception or, in the case of adults , a legal fiction.

Beowulfa · 15/04/2021 13:07

Well this has brought back some delightful memories of school PE lesssons:

-freezing, draughty, cobwebby sports pavillion
-freezing, sputtering showers
-having to wear revolting gym knickers and netball skirt
-having to get naked in front of other people in order to change in and out of hideous PE kit
-having to run in circles and attempt to catch/throw/hit various sized balls hurled at me, whilst being screamed at by a PE teacher

The only thing that could possibly have improved this experience would have been changing/showering with the boys in my year. Just how rubbish do those in power plan to make life for teenage girls at the moment?

WhoWants2Know · 15/04/2021 13:06

I'm not in Scotland, but in a rural area in England. There are few Muslim students who would be impacted within the school, but a fair proportion of both Romany and Irish travellers (settled and mobile) within the community. It's not easy to keep students from that background engaged with education at the best of times, and this won't help. I haven't spoken to the families that I know yet, but I think they will remove their daughters from the school.

I understand that a child may change their uniform and name and pronouns, but that won't necessarily change the way their opposite sex classmates feel about being nude in their presence.

OP posts:
transbadger · 15/04/2021 13:04

@R0wantrees

Badass Badger award for you. Excellent post!

🏆

🦡🌈🤍

R0wantrees · 15/04/2021 13:03

Ultimately the school governors (rather than the SLT) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.

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