NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

People with a cervix
Most women and girls don't know for a fact they have one

I did my ante natal classes in a particularly deprived area. The knowledge of human anatomy was shocking- a teenage boy who was astonished to discover the baby came out the same way it went in- no I am not making that up. He thought they “cut it out”. Another man in his 20’s who walked out saying “I don’t even have a fucking perineum, why do I need to learn this shit”.

I wouldn’t be surprised if many don’t know they have a cervix.

I note that none of the posters who are in favour of the language in the OP have responded to my post about how I think it doesn't really suit trans people at all, anyway. And what would be a much better, inclusive and more sensitive all round.

The people who are in favour of the language because of trans men and non binary females, have not apparently given a passing thought as to whether this session will work for them as a group.

Funny that isn't it.

All if this language is based on assumptionss that people (women and girls) have to make.

People with a cervix
Most women and girls don't know for a fact they have one. I know you can go searching with fingers and feel for something like 'the tip of your nose'. In reality how many do this? And if it's high etc then you won't feel it. And you might feel something else and think that was it.

Women and girls assume they have a cervix because they know they're female. If they know what a cervix is, that is.

People with ovaries
Ditto

People who menstruate
This one is a big problem. How do you define it? It's not something we do continuously. If it's info for girls who have not started periods yet, you say people who will menstruate. But you don't know do you. Girls and women who exercise a lot often don't get them. There could be a medical problem. Etc.
And through life you can only say for sure that you will have another period if you're having one at the time. Loads of stuff stops them.
It's all just really hamfisted when it comes to the biological reality.

And most of these wordings depend on
Knowing that you are female
Understanding female biology and the names of the parts and functions
And then assuming in many cases that you have them because you know you're female

So what actually is the point?
It reduces us to reproductive functions, body parts (yay?)
It is language that many won't understand
It is based on assumptions about what bits you have rather than something you know, for a lot of them
And you are supposed to make these assumptions because you know you're female but that much more basic easy fact that encompasses the whole lot is apparently too outragous a term to use or allude to.

Medically, it is. For example if you had a hysterectomy but ovaries were left in situ, you will no longer menstruate but will still go through the menopause.

Yes, this was the case for my mum.

*People who menstruate "or" who will go through the menopause.

It's not an either or thing, is it? If you are a menstruator, at some point presumably you will be a menopausist*

Medically, it is. For example if you had a hysterectomy but ovaries were left in situ, you will no longer menstruate but will still go through the menopause.

I suppose it will apply to those women who have stopped their periods with hormonal birth control too.

some organisations don't understand that you are supposed to examine the impact on all nine protected characteristics, not just the one the policy is addressing.

And some have been actively encouraged to believe this, in training delivered by people who were political lobbyists with no qualifications, knowledge or experience in Equality legislation and the other characteristics, in public policy and duties, or in safeguarding. Failures in due diligence and failures in basic standards of knowledge and good practice has played an enormous part here.

Do they not have to do an impact equality assessment on this kind of stuff in the public sector?

It's considered good practice to meet Public Sector Equality Duty, but some organisations don't understand that you are supposed to examine the impact on all nine protected characteristics, not just the one the policy is addressing.

So older women who have gone through menopause aren't allowed?

To non English first language speakers these kind of posters must be very confusing. So already we are excluding them to accommodate the feelings of 0.1%. Then we exclude those who are excluded because the word woman hasn’t been included. Not very inclusive suddenly. Do they not have to do an impact equality assessment on this kind of stuff in the public sector?

I am a woman about to go into menopause and I would literally eat my own shrivelled uterus than go to one of these workshops. You might as well stick a label on your head saying "old, useless and past it, pass me over for promotion"

Absolutely. It is not something you instinctively identify yourself with. One of the things with women and menopause is that many of them are unprepared. This is a combination of it only being referred to in hushed tones or derogatory fashion and most women ignoring the inevitable and getting on with life until it hits them and isn't what they expected. I don't even know when my mother reached menopause (a question doctor's seem to ask) and she isn't there to tell me now - and I am not alone in this.

Many women do not have periods because of contraceptives. Even if you have had a hysterectomy, if you still have ovaries there will be menopause and this might not be what you expect.

Mostly women have dealt with this stage of life as best they can with work. Some of them end up losing jobs/being managed out. There is always someone keen to take their place. This education is supposed to help them avoid this.

So the language being used is not inclusive of the women that it is aimed at.

I am a woman about to go into menopause and I would literally eat my own shrivelled uterus than go to one of these workshops. You might as well stick a label on your head saying "old, useless and past it, pass me over for promotion"

Just as being female is the last thing I want to draw attention to in the workplace with silly pronouns, being an ageing woman is something I am even less eager to highlight as I need and want to keep working for at least another 15 years.

Trans men are men

So, if transmen are men, they will have no need of a workshop on menstruation or menopause.

It could be offensive not only because women and transmen are categorised together but because of who isn’t explicitly included in the category ie transwomen

Unfortunately though the biological realities of 52% of the human race cannot be concealed in each and every way to avoid cause a very tiny group of the population possible offense at the cost of everyone else. No one is intolerant of those who would prefer to be referred to in other ways. It is necessary for them to be tolerant too. Equal expectations. Equality of values.

Oops, just seen that NiceGerbil has said much the same thing! Great minds ...

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong about this, but wouldn't a transman coming up to menopausal age, or going through premature menopause as a result of surgery/hormone treatment, be likely to feel uncomfortable going to a workshop like this clearly targeted at people with female anatomy? Would Jon from accounts, who's always been Jon to all colleagues, but is actually female, really feel OK turning up to the workshop with Maggie from the sales department, who up to this point has only known Jon as a man? I imagine the numbers of transmen reaching menopausal age are rather small so running a special workshop for them is a non-starter for most employers, but perhaps that's an area where some of the charities supporting trans people could do a useful service and employers could refer staff there.

I think that when it is said “this session is for women and transmen” putting the two together highlights the similarities between them and the immutable nature of biology. I imagine that that is why it might be considered offensive to trans people. It could be offensive not only because women and transmen are categorised together but because of who isn’t explicitly included in the category ie transwomen however they often just use the term women to describe themselves and so may turn up anyway. As I understand it, some transwomen do believe that they experience periods and the menopause.

I absolutely don't understand the loathing to use the word trans in all this nonsense. What is wrong with calling a meeting for women and transmen going through the menopause? That is inclusive and unambiguous.

I am baffled that the use of 'trans' accurately and openly is so avoided, leading to the obfuscating mangled language. Do transmen not like to be called trans? Is trans as a term offensive in some way? Who to? What's wrong with it?

Make a poster/email announcement for a session which deliberately alienates the bulk of the audience in favour of appealing to a group who are low to non existent in numbers (middle aged transmen and non binary menstruators) in that organisation and would be unlikely to want to attend anyway. The sessions are then poorly attended, the conclusion is drawn that the sessions are not needed. The organisation can save money and not try to reach the audience of women going through menopause.

@PumpkinSpiceWoman the OP clearly says "The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well". Her issue, quite rightly, is not that the term woman is not used at all.

‘People who menstruate’ manages to offend both women and transmen. And, let’s be honest, transwomen, of course.

The entire target audience, and a further sub-set of humanity. That’s quite something.

In all honesty I would say.

That if a trans man has had hormones and/ or surgery then the last place they want to be is in a workshop full of women. Surely that would be immensely uncomfortable for pretty much everyone. There's also the issue of not wanting to out yourself at work. My understanding is this is for employees.
Additionally if a trans man has had surgery / hormones then they will be under medical care around all sorts of things to do with their reproductive biology. They will be getting specialist advice. Or they really should be. And if they aren't, a workshop like this will be inappropriate as they will have very different and individual needs.

If a trans man has had no hormones/ surgery then a different story. Similarly for non binary females. Again I would say that it would not be comfortable for them to go to a session that will inevitably be very woman heavy.

The genuinely inclusive approach, considering all needs, would be to run two sessions.

One for women who would like information about the menopause.

One for transmen and non binary people who would like to know more about the menopause.

In fact for the sake of privacy and knowing the numbers will likely be low. I would email out saying would anyone who is trans or non binary be interested in a session about menopause. And see if there was interest and if so, be discreet about where/ when. I would offer individual sessions for this reason as well (cost allowing) and if not look into reputable orgs to signpost to.

The idea that it would be anticipated that anyone with a non woman gender identity would be comfortable going to an open menopause session seems unlikely to me.

And anyway the needs of that group could be more specialised.

So no. I don't want to exclude trans men. I want to make sure that everyone who might need the session, understands that it's happening and what it's about. And that trans people who may be interested are considered with the utmost sensitivity and not just lumped in as people who menstruate which would be an incredibly insensitive approach that I doubt would get them engaged.

@PumpkinSpiceWoman

Remind me again, why do you want trans men to suffer during the menopause

Do you say this because you think that by using the word “woman” in relation to something like a discussion on reproductive health or menopause would put a trans man off attending or trying to be part of that discussion?

This is a genuine question. Is that the objection to using woman rather than person?

Just waiting to see if they will be using OPs suggestion of “people with prostrates”

Isn’t it insane that by falling over yourself to be inclusive you end up excluding the main body of people effected. If you really were scared of upsetting or excluding groups then why couldn’t it be written in a way to not even touch on descriptions.
“Menopause awareness course - if you are facing the menopause then you’re not alone, join our session for advice and support”

Ok it’s shit they won’t just say woman or female but if they want to walk the middle line then that’s taking descriptions out of it in my opinion. I’d raise an eyebrow at such neutral and obviously timid phrasing but id understand the desire to walk the middle line. I’d certainly be a lot more fucked off at cervix haver / period person / individual with wangers / human with hairy muff and other women minimising phrases