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Original poster

NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

438 replies

sunshineandhappy · 14/04/2021 14:22

I received a generic email from the well being team at the nhs trust I am employed by inviting me to a managing menopause workshop which was open to 'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause'.
This was my reply I was disappointed to see the following phrase ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ in the below email. The correct phrase for the target audience should surely include the word women, even if the other phrasing needs to be used as well, as this clumsy phrasing, whilst appearing to be inclusive to a minority, is actually exclusive to the way the vast majority of the target audience for this seminar may feel. I do not want to be reduced to being a person who menstruates or a person who will go through the menopause, I am a woman, an adult human female. I hope my opinion will be considered in the spirit in which it is meant, as all groups matter, and all relevant individuals should be considered when generic emails are being sent to a large number of staff.'
We will wait to see whether I receive any response

OP posts:
ListeningQuietly · 20/04/2021 21:33

are women transwomen invited for the AAA test
if not
why not

ChattyLion · 20/04/2021 21:21

Cracking response OP

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 20/04/2021 11:53

Ahhh *you’re

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 20/04/2021 11:52

@Tal45 the language is being changed to accommodate transwomen, as their feelings are hurt when the word ‘woman’ is used in association with female biological processes, as this makes they feel like they aren’t women because they don’t have female biology.
They would rather the word woman is completely disconnected from biology, so that it doesn’t matter whether your a woman who menstruates or a woman with a penis!
Hmm

Tal45 · 20/04/2021 11:44

If the language is to cover transgender men why can't it just say women and transgender men? Or is there some other category covered by it?

MeltsAway · 20/04/2021 11:34

Excellent response, @sunshineandhappy

Totally reasonable, and following the guidelines they patronisingly didn't explain to you

GlencoraP · 20/04/2021 10:42

Very good response , I await the response

Biscuitsanddoombar · 20/04/2021 10:37

Brilliant response OP!

FrancesGumm · 20/04/2021 10:33

Agree - excellent response OP

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/04/2021 09:49

Good response.

Original poster
sunshineandhappy · 20/04/2021 09:47

My response to the equality and diversity lead of the trust this morning.

hank you for your response. I am not sure I am fully clear what is going to happen moving forwards from this though, and would like some clarification.
You say There is no policy that says the word ‘women / woman’ cannot be used, we strongly recommend that using other categories and descriptors alongside to be inclusive. So how will we ensure that this more inclusive language is to be used?
There seems to be confusion about the definitions of sex vs gender. They are not the same thing in this context, and terminology, as you pointed out, is important.
The World Health Organisation describes sex as characteristics that are biologically defined, whereas gender is based on socially constructed features. They recognise that there are variations in how people experience gender based upon self-perception and expression, and how they behave. I feel that for all NHS communication, but particularly for communication based around healthcare which is more specifically aimed at one sex rather than both, the words male and female are important, and we should be mindful that it is a person’s sex which will determine some of their healthcare requirements.
A person’s gender ( if they feel they are defined by this, I personally am happy to be defined by my sex but I know this is not the same for everyone) does not affect their biology as far as how their healthcare should be provided, I am never going to require prostate screening for example, but regardless of how I identify, cervical screening and mammograms are appropriate tests for me.
I am more than happy for inclusive language to be used, but it is very important that the words women and men should not become taboo, and the lack of use of the word woman has an outcome of being exclusive, ie the exact opposite of what the nhs is trying to achieve. It also seems that there is more difficulty or reluctance to use the word ‘women’ than the word ‘men’ and I would ask you to explain why that should be?
I cannot believe that it is really so difficult to simply add the phrase ’women and’ to ‘those who menstruate or those who will go through the menopause ‘ as the target audience for the menopause workshop, and other similar workshops, and I will wait to see when this happens, and would be very interested in the reasoning if this does not happen in this trust. If as you say there is no policy to exclude the word woman, then surely this should simply be added to all such communication?

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 19/04/2021 21:55

'people who menstruate or people who will go through the menopause''

' It is a complex area but the intention is always one that acts in a person’s best interest and accords them dignity and privacy.'

???????!!!!!

Ask them why they believe this language is a 'dignified' way to refer to women.

Point out that saying women who are going into menopause (I mean that's who it's aimed at and will be the vast majority of the interested people) come to room 506 in Tuesday at 2... Isn't very private?

Women don't tend to want to broadcast that they're perimenopausal.

I mean that privacy dignity thing is just an in you face fuck you. Quite frankly.

NiceGerbil · 19/04/2021 21:50

Yes maybe the point is that women is on that page.

Why?

Because stuff aimed at men needs to be clear?

RedDogsBeg · 19/04/2021 21:34

What's with the gender, gender diversity stuff? The EQA states that Gender Reassignment is the protected characteristic as is Sex.

Wonder which patients provided feedback regarding maternity, when Brighton announced their changes there was almost universal condemnation of the new language.

There is no policy that says the word ‘women / woman’ cannot be used, we strongly recommend that using other categories and descriptors alongside to be inclusive

So, why wasn't the word woman/women used?

AnyOldPrion · 19/04/2021 21:02

It crosses my mind that they linked that page because it uses both words.

I’m quite possibly being too subtle, but I wonder whether they hope OP will write back and say they are using the word “men” freely at which point they will do a “gotcha” and point out the use of the word “women”, falsely implying that it is equal and the “gender hypersensitive” version is only used for reproductive health or areas that might be “triggering”.

But I suspect they’d find, if they looked, that men’s reproductive health never seems to be “triggering” enough for those transitioning from female to male to be given similar consideration.

Lifeaintalwaysempty · 19/04/2021 20:49

@NeedToKnow101

n England, screening for AAA is offered to people with penises, and trans women, during the year they turn 65.

Scrotum-havers and trans women aged 65 or over are most at risk of getting AAAs. Screening can help spot a swelling in the aorta early on when it can usually be treated. Screening for AAA is not routinely offered to:
• people with vaginas
•People with penises under 65
•scrotum-havers who have already been treated for an AAA

This is because the risk of getting an AAA is much smaller in these groups.

This has really make me laugh which I needed, this issue depresses me so much
Zeugma · 19/04/2021 20:48

Yes, I too was interested in the mention of the Aortic Aneurysm screening because I know a few men, including my DH, who've been called to have it. And surprise, surprise, it's men it applies to.

Other than that, the response is quite frankly the biggest pile of laughably badly-written waffle I've seen in a long time. Don't they even bother to proof-read?

Keep going, OP, you're doing a great job here.

weewitch · 19/04/2021 20:42

Well done & thank for continuing to complain Op.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 19/04/2021 20:35

*The point is the area of medicine/reproductive health. Thinking it through, all the targeted areas I’ve seen are related to women’s reproductive health.

The targeting is more subtle than simply that they always target the word women and not the word men.*

It's a good point.

NiceGerbil · 19/04/2021 20:35

Hold on s minute...

'For the scan:

you lie down on a table and lift up or unbutton your top (you do not need to undress)'

Their gender people can't have been through that. What if the patient is wearing a dress?

AnyOldPrion · 19/04/2021 20:28

@sunshineandhappy

He's surely given me some ammunition in the example he's given me. It's ok to use the word men but not the word women 😮 all I want is the inclusion of 'women and' in hospital emails. There's another email being sent tomorrow!
Careful sunshine. On the page they linked, they use both “men” and “women”.

The point is the area of medicine/reproductive health. Thinking it through, all the targeted areas I’ve seen are related to women’s reproductive health.

The targeting is more subtle than simply that they always target the word women and not the word men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/04/2021 20:22

Seeing as they pointed out this particular section, there might be mileage for sunshineandhappy to point this out and pinpoint the fact that in her experience the dehumanising language occurs more often when it’s women who are being targeted (perhaps with further examples) and ask them pointedly why they think that might be as the most likely reason for this difference is sexism and disrespect for women.

Yes, absolutely.

persistentwoman · 19/04/2021 20:13

It's jarring isn't it NeedToKnow101 ? Yet this is how the NHS prefers to speak about women at the behest of ???? (well we all know who and it's not women)

EastWestWhosBest · 19/04/2021 20:12

There is no policy that says the word ‘women / woman’ cannot be used

But what does woman/women mean?

We will have to keep that on file for a certain regular poster who tell us the nhs are getting rid of it.

RabbitOfCaerbannog · 19/04/2021 20:09

Gender Diversity in particular has seen unprecedented change in recent years, with more recently, a focus on maternity services following patient feedback.

I wonder how much patient feedback the NHS gets on this given the vanishingly small number of trans men giving birth compared to the vast numbers of women? Or is it trans women patients taking a particular interest in women's services which are actually not relevant to them, or is it lobby groups like Stonewall? I just don't believe that service user pressure on this area is so overwhelming that they have to ditch the word woman.