NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

In the link for NHS digital posted upthread it says:
Design and build digital services for the NHS
Use the service manual to build consistent, usable services that put people first.

Then goes on to say here

service-manual.nhs.uk/service-standard/5-make-sure-everyone-can-use-the-service

understand who the most vulnerable users for your service are and include them in user research, for example: people with access needs, people with low socio-economic status (D and E), older people, and black and minority ethnic people

design for low digital and health literacy

(Presumably for people whom English is not their first language or other reasons their comprehension levels may make words less readily understandable)

make sure you do not exclude any groups your service serves, for example because they lack digital skills or internet access, and you provide assisted digital support to cover any gaps

avoid making any groups of people feel excluded

(It also says it’s
'Beta' means that we think it's good enough to share but we're still testing it.)

The NHS website go on to use phrases such as:
“All women and people with a cervix aged 25 to 64 should be invited by letter.”
here www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/

(And incidentally “The prostate is a small gland in the pelvis, found only in men.
www.nhs.uk/conditions/prostate-cancer/ )

Therefore by their own standards, saying “women and ....” is preferable to avoid making any groups of people feel excluded

Keep us up to date sunshineandhappy, you’re not alone, we’ve got your back

@DaisiesandButtercups
Hear hear

Well done @sunshineandhappy

Thank you for that information. I appreciate it. However as someone who works alongside the NHS now this type of language is being used as its more correct and doesn't discriminate.

@sunshineandhappy

You are not alone in feeling strongly about this, thank you for standing up for all of us.

That would then get a lot of women [sic] who have never, will never and biologically would never menstruate or experience the cessation of menstruation turning up for at least one workshop.

Haven't heard of any hot flush fetishists as it's apparently all about being a Girl but I suppose some must, along with others who desperately want to believe that they also share this stage of life.

Is this what it comes down to? Women have to choose between dehumanising language or put up with the fact that men might invade their medical sessions?

This is one of the reasons this trend needs to be be put to bed pronto. The solution suggested in the thread, where the word woman is used, but a clear explanation of whom that word includes is the way to go.

The solution needs to be aimed at ensuring women are comfortable and well served, not at attempting to ensure men who claim they are women are not offended. To prioritise those men is sexism, plain and simple.

That workshop sounds the opposite of fun

Women is a dirty word now. The word women has been taken over by men just as they have taken everything else belonging to us.

At the very beginning of the Manual it states
It's meant as a guide, not a rulebook. You're welcome to adapt a style pattern if it does not meet your users' needs.

In the Inclusive Language section under Sex, Gender and Sexuality it says
This section should help you get started but the best thing is to test your content and services with the people who use them.
and
We use the phrase "sex assigned at birth" when we're talking about trans health and gender dysphoria, as this is the language our audience uses. In other cases, we use "the sex someone was registered with at birth" because user research shows that most people understand this better as it refers to an actual event.

I used to write for the NHS for a living. If I were adhering closely to the quoted guidance and writing for a general audience I might say something like "Women and anyone whose sex was registered female at birth". I prefer tiktok's suggestion "In this [insert type of publication] we use the word 'woman' to refer to biological sex, not gender identity or gender expression" though. It's much more elegant and something like that is what I would push for at the editorial meeting.

If it’s understandably not OK - that is, not inclusive - to say ‘person with autism’ (presumably autistic people are also people?), then why is it OK to ‘person who menstruates’?

Why not? Are we not people anymore?

I think a critical thought process here is missed. The one that identifies the target audience.

Who is the workshop targeting? Females.
Therefore the language should be inclusive to females. No other group should trump this. Potentially alienating your target group to be “inclusive” to people outside your target group is ridiculous and incompetent.

Use Females, or Women and Trans people who menstruate. This way you are being fully inclusive to those who need to be included and not calling female trans people “women”.

I would also assume it’s for very specific members of the rainbow community. Not for me.

Because men are more important. Obviously.

Maybe because of my age- I dont know. But when I see anything targeting people who menstruate, I don't find this language inclusive of me as a woman- and wouldn't attend, as I look at this and assume it's for those who no longer accept their gender as female, but their biology and sex are female.

Ginghamstarfish, I agree with your idea of asking what language they are using when referring to men. If it isn't 'people with prostates' or similar, why not?

As someone who works alongside the NHS surely you know this is in line with their language guidelines right? That it is totally normal and the right language? service-manual.nhs.uk/content/inclusive-language

The whole people who menstruate / menstruators language is just so useless.

I'm not menstruating now. Will my next period come? Dunno. Women and girls can start and stop. Pregnancy, illness, breast feeding, peri menopause... It's not an ongoing process! I'm in peri... Will I get another period or not? No idea

Menstruation is not the common word. In English most people talk about periods. Or a host of euphemisms. Does everyone know what menstrustion means?

The main thing thought of about menopause is stopping periods, signalling an end to reproductive age. It's not very sensitive to refer to women by this thing, surely? Also peri is linking to unpredictable periods, sometimes very heavy flow. Again. It's not very sensitive is it.

In short. That's shit.

Thank you Cowbells, my reasoning is yes it will be interesting to see how many turn up to the second but primarily the two groups may have quite irreconcilably different needs when it comes to language and approach. Many women, myself included, would find a single sex and woman centred environment the most helpful and effective to discuss the menopause and its impact. It would also avoid the distracting and uncomfortable language mangling described by BoeotianNightmare.

I recently attended a menopause talk at work and the doctor presenting started by explaining she would use the word woman but included transmen and non binary individuals, ok fine. Then throughout the talk she twisted herself up in knots trying to avoid the word woman, using "those in possession of a uterus" etc. It was pretty cringy.

@MichelleofzeResistance, I think it would be worth challenging any Equal and Diversity policy/panel on this.

It is only the far edge of this debate where there is a denial that biology is real and material and in females, linked to menstruation and menopause...you know, the people who tell us 'but sex and gender are different' and then proceed to confuse the two when it suits their agenda. Sex and gender identity/expression are different, and anyone should be free to express themselves or otherwise identify themselves vis a vis gender.

I'm trying hard to keep to MN rules about what I can and can't say about the majority of people understanding that biology remains, whatever interventions have taken place surgically or pharmacologically in any individual.

It's a shame if some individuals really cannot cope with seeing the 'W' word linked with menstruation, and are upset or triggered to the extent they cannot cope, but I'd suggest working in the health service is perhaps not well suited to them. In the same way, a workshop on grieving or bereavement may well be triggering to someone who's experienced loss....but expecting some sort of euphemism to avoid either word is not usually asked for.