NHS staff invitation to menopause workshop to people who menstruate!

ASugarr, the guidelines you linked which you say you have to follow, state avoid making any groups of people feel excluded there is a group of people here, stating they feel excluded by phrases which avoid the use of the word “woman”. As evidenced by the NHS’s own website, it shows that phrases such as “All women and people with a cervix” www.nhs.uk/conditions/cervical-screening/
are acceptable.
This begs the question, why are you not following the guidelines you yourself linked and you yourself told us you have to follow?

@ASugarr

And why do you think the backlash by men is going to be way worse? Why not rip off the bandaid and go all out for people and persons everywhere? Why target women first?

The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender. Female maybe however that is still uncomfortable for many. The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step

🤣🤣 it really isn’t. Only for the small percentage of people on Twitter who believe so.

And isn’t that revealing? You see that the rights of transmen - females - are put on the back burner for fear of upsetting men. Whereas the rights of transwomen - males - are front and centre because no one cares if women get upset.

In the words of the great Roy Walker, you’re close...just say what you see.

The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender.

Nonsense.

What it boils down to, is, who is supposed to be the audience?
If you are talking about natural menopause at age 50, you are not including transwomen in that audience. So it's ok to say "women, and others who are experiencing natural cessation of periods". If it's a transhealth session for transmen, it's not for people who think of themselves as women, so say "workshop for transmen and non binary people".
Why are we tying ourselves in knots?

The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.

Sorry, do you mean men's language is also being changed but they are objecting louder and being pandered to?

Absolutely, we have your back here @sunshineandhappy - I'm really interested to hear their further response - particularly to the prostate/testicular cancer workshop, I really do hope it is for people with penises or testicles.

It makes me SO angry that the tiny weeny proportion of the population who are trans have created such a stink that we are no longer allowed to be called women. I am a woman. I don't menstruate (coil fitted) but I am peri menopausal. I don't understand why they just can't say women and those who menstruate.

I will not be defined as a person who menstruates, person who will go through the menopause in the same way I do not wish to be defined by any of my other bodily functions. I'm not going to start filling in forms and answer gender questions with 'person who farts'.

Do they not see the pendulum has swung so far the other way it's come off it's bracket? I honestly despair for the future, particularly as the parent of a painfully woke teen

Is this a clinical talk aimed at providing education on menopause/perimenopause to staff who will be seeing female patients with it? In which case I’d ask if they thought what proportion of the patient population will see themselves as “people who menstruate” rather than women and possibly asking about an impact assessment for this? They risk excluding g a number of women with this wording. In which case, they may be failing in their duty of care.
If it’s for staff wellbeing, I’d ask something similar about exclusion of female staff who may not recognise themselves in this description. Who does it exclude and did they assess that?

[quote SD1978]@ASugarr - I disagree that it doesn't discriminate- I think it really does- as many women do who don't believe inclusivity means the removal of all sex based language. And let's not forget- most of the literature for men, doesn't say person with a prostrate, or person with a penis- they have keys the language of men- why is that? [/quote]
The term woman isn't sex based language. It is gender. Female maybe however that is still uncomfortable for many. The changes are gradually being made to men however the backlash is going to be way worse so they are taking it step by step.

@ASugarr - I disagree that it doesn't discriminate- I think it really does- as many women do who don't believe inclusivity means the removal of all sex based language. And let's not forget- most of the literature for men, doesn't say person with a prostrate, or person with a penis- they have keys the language of men- why is that?

[quote Lifeaintalwaysempty]@ASugarr the vast vast majority are so this workshop should have addressed their needs by saying ‘women and’ at the least[/quote]
So you are happy for trans men to be discriminated against and uncomfortable? Why do their views not matter? Most women are fine with inclusive language.

Its good thats its being challenged men are rarely if ever referred to as "persons" why should women accept this role and roll over to it forget it all or nothing

Okay well transgender men find it offensive. So the best way for it to be put is to refer to 'people who...' And go from there. If it said men and women I imagine there would be more outrage from women so it is a healthy compromise.

Does your trust have a women's health directorate OP? You might want to mention this and include the clinical director in your correspondence.

Speaking a someone who has gone through both a medically induced pseudo menopause and a natural menopause, I can confirm that the two experiences are poles apart. There is no way that a single workshop could cater to both audiences.

@ASugarr the vast vast majority are so this workshop should have addressed their needs by saying ‘women and’ at the least

Indeed, I presume it might well be triggering for TM and NB people to be in workshop with a group of women, talking about female biological functions. The person running the workshop might also be put in an awkward position by having to keep chopping and changing their terminology depending to whom they are talking, as might the women who are not TM or NB. Having two separate workshops might be a huge relief all round

Well said diverze

Okay well it isn't calling you a 'Menstrator' its calling you a person. And you are a person.

That’s really thorough and aligns with my understanding, eyesopening.

Any service provider that is offering services to the NHS through the digital marketplace/gcloud etc and has successfully gone through the RFI/tender process to be selected would have had to demonstrate compliance to a whole raft of standards.

Not everyone who menstruates is a woman.

Well done for challenging OP. It’s a disgrace. They’ve gone out of their to avoid even saying ‘women and.... ‘ but guaranteed they won’t do the same for male based biological issues. We have to keep challenging this.

One of the principles of marketing and advertising is to speak to your audience. It matters very much to me that if I were to attend that meeting, which would be brave of me because women my age we don't need help, we muddle through or maybe go to our own doctor if we really can't take it any more, that only female presenting people attend. It makes me a terrible bigot but many trans men pass very well if a male presenting bearded transman were there I would find that uncomfortable. I would read that person as male and probably quietly slip out.

I really think two separate workshops may be needed. Does a transman not perhaps have different medical needs in relation to periods and menopause, particularly since their menopause may be induced very early by cross sex hormones?
One of my huge bugbears with political correctness in general is that it tries to deny difference exists as if noticing difference is bad or bigoted. There is nothing wrong with being different. I think a workshop on induced menopause for trans people would be a hugely important and welcome event. But it would and should be different in emphasis, discussion and tone from one for born women who are just at perimenopause age.

I and others of my generation would be much more likely to attend a workshop clearly for women than for menstruators. The word makes me cringe.
Similarly a young transman in their 20s doesn't want to sit amongst 50 year old women learning about natural menopause in a way that has little relevance to them. Plus I highly doubt many transmen would enjoy being called a "menstruator" either, as it reduces them to a hugely triggering biological function.

So in attempting to be inclusive this phrasing conflates the needs of two separate groups and alienates both.
" correct and non discriminatory?" LISTEN to your bloody audience.

Well done sunshineandhappy - I look forward to hearing any further responses.

And yes the term ‘people who menstruate’ does imply to me that it’s a trans man so someone who doesn’t self id as a woman. I’m a woman so might think the course was not actually relevant to me, being simply a woman . Because if it was for women it would say that ! I think the language discriminates against women , the 99% of people this course refers to, the adult human female woman type of person.