Coming out as gender critical

As far as many trans rights activists are concerned, "coming out "as gender critical is pretty much the same as "coming out" as racist or homphobic.

People who think that feminist women who don't think males change sex on their say so and who value their own sex-based rights are a bunch of outdated bigots like racists or homophobes are using a lazy false equivalence to prop up their own shaky position.

As we've seen with the appalling treatment of black female FGM activists by Twitter warriors, and also of lesbians and occasionally gay men who affirm their right to exclusive same sex attraction.

I would approach this slightly differently.

IMO, unless you can address the presumption that anyone who disagrees with your friend’s beliefs on this issue is a bigot, you have no realistic hope of having a balanced or productive conversation on the subject.

Start with her post on the open letter to Liz Truss and simply ask if she agrees that the organisations referenced are hate groups and, if so, can she help you understand why she thinks this is the case. Then see where her response takes you.

Before you broach this, think about whether there is any issue on which the two of you do agree and on which you might both have been guilty of attributing bad motives to those holding the opposing view - dismissing them on principle and reframing their position in the worst possible light, rather than addressing the substance of their actual, stated opinions.

I say this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot in relation to the toxicity and polarisation of so many issues society is grappling with at the moment. I've have had to admit to myself that, if I’m honest, I’ve fallen into the identitarian trap in the past on other matters. Brexit was a prime example. With hindsight I can say I bought into the overarching narrative that every ‘Leaver’ was at heart an ignorant, xenophobic ‘Little Englander’. As a result, I didn’t really bother engaging with what they were actually saying to any meaningful degree.

If you can talk about this trend in relation to another issue, you might make some progress towards finding some common ground to build from. Make your first aim agreement that it’s far more helpful to really listen to the substance and nuance of an opposing argument, if you want to have any chance of changing someone’s mind.

I genuinely think this is the first step towards collapsing the house of cards that is gender ideology, but it has to be taken or those with GC views will never get past just being shouted down as ‘evil, hateful bigots’.

Baby steps - but steps in the right direction.

This will most likely end your friendship.

It's one thing to hold these views, it's quite another to approach an activist who believes the opposite and has heard these arguments time and time again. Consider what your motives actually are - if you are seeking information, there is plenty of that in medical, psychological literature and from LGBT+ groups.

As far as many trans rights activists are concerned, "coming out "as gender critical is pretty much the same as "coming out" as racist or homphobic. (Yes, you think they are wrong - this is about the impression they will get.)

It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

Pot kettle comes to mind.

Besides which, if there's one thing I've learned from the trans debacle it's that reason and logic and science don't change peoples' minds. They know they're irrational and the only way of upholding their irrationality is to stick with it.

Yes that's a good point.

Also, can I just point out that using terminology like "coming out" is insulting to LGBT people.

We have to come out because of innate and immutable characteristics. "coming out" as gender critical is not a thing. It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

You say you're "genuinely interested in properly understanding where our points of difference are".

But your approach here suggests anything but. Your message is long and preachy. It suggests that you believe your viewpoint is the "right" one and that you want her to share it.

If your intention is to understand, then you should ask questions and listen. Instead, you've made it all about you and what you believe.

As an alternative to faux innocence, you could also consider appearing to enthusiastically support her views, and let her join the dots herself.
For example: “Yes of course intact male rapists should be put in women’s prisons if they ID as female! I know several women and staff have already been sexually assaulted by them, but we women really need to accept being raped and abused in order for trans prisoners not to have their feelings hurt.”
Or: “Yes, transwomen with male bodies should be allowed in women’s sports. Who cares about the women who lose medals and podium places, or get seriously injured, when trans people’s feelings are at stake? It doesn’t matter that they retain all their male advantages of higher cardiac output, vital capacity and muscle strength - women should just be kind and accept losing to them, shouldn’t we.”
It would really put her on the spot, OP. She either has to agree with the statements ,and admit she doesn’t care how this ideology damages women’s rights and safety, or have a rethink about her unquestioning support of it.

I think faux innocence is more effective with people who don't know you or in group situation where a trainer is trying to persuade you that black is white. Particularly in the latter case a well-timed 'Maybe I'm being a bit thick but surely no human being can actually change sex?' can be effective. But if someone's know you for years they're not going to fall for it.

Besides which, if there's one thing I've learned from the trans debacle it's that reason and logic and science don't change peoples' minds. They know they're irrational and the only way of upholding their irrationality is to stick with it.

I think you’ve expressed your GC point of view beautifully and I’d send it. She’ll think twice about sending you TRA petitions to sign at the very least!

Yes the faux innocence pointed question is a great tactic. Especially when there are onlookers present.

This may not be your personality style, but another approach is the wide-eyed Louis Theroux innocent questioning ie

-but mammals can't change sex-it would have been all over the news?!
-but surely there aren't criminals with penises housed in women's prisons?!
-lesbians don't really have to pretend to fancy people with penises, do they?! They like fannies!

It's a less direct way of raising the issue. Obviously if they're captured the responses will be bollocks, but no doubt entertaining bollocks.

For what it's worth, OP, I think that's a brilliant letter and have copied and pasted it into my 'useful' file. I'd send it. It's not a real friendship when you can't tell a friend how you really feel about something so fundamentally important to women's rights.

The thing I'm struggling with is the number of posters who remain, and wish to remain, friends with people who are ardently pro transgender ideology and gender ideology. There are only a couple of people still in my life who are in any way pro-trans and both of them are of the couldn't-really-care but let's try and be kind persuasion, partly I suspect because their jobs require them to be.

Some of my former friends have fled weeping irrational tears after telling me that my beliefs are literal violence to them: my sister is one of them. Apparently after years of both being Labour voters, both being progressive, my GC beliefs make me anathema. Others have revealed themselves as the kind of people who just follow the herd for a quiet life, which has made me reassess how much time and energy I want to spend on them. Fortunately the void created has allowed new friends to enter —rational, thoughtful, genuinely women-focussed women. It's sad when a long friendship comes to an end, but we all change as we grow older.and in my opinion it's better to have people you can be honest with than people you're treading on eggshells with.

jul26m, you are very fortunate that your email recipients think you are male. If you insist on female pronouns, they will immediately and subconsciously downgrade your contributions as “just a woman”.
It has been shown that the same email with a male name gets a faster and more respectful response than with a female one.
So forcing women to put female pronouns at work will increase sexist discrimination against them. Why should we subscribe to that? At present we can sign off with initials and surname. Long may it continue.

How about the open, guileless approach, OP? Something like:

re your FB post - Have you had issues in Canada perhaps, where this simple approach just isn't working out? Here in England, there have been tremendous problems in the prisons!! You'd think that it wouldn't have been an issue, but the tw in female prisons here have been assaulting and raping their fellow inmates! (ref the Karen white debacle etc). Golly it's all clearly not as simple as I first thought! What do you do about these sorts of issue, over there in Canada?

She may, of course, realise that you are taking the piss a bit. But she probably will take it all at face value, and it might just open the conversation?

That's how I opened the conversation with my mate, but I started on sport as it was the most relevant issue for him.

Best of luck !

What’s the issue with pronouns in email signature? Would be quite useful to know if, for example, “Alex” or “Sam” wanted to be referred to as he/him or she/her

22:17 terfypants if it is important to Alex or Sam that email correspondents know their sex, I daresay they could find a way of communicating that in emails they send.
Personally, I couldn't care Leeds [less] if purple [people] know my sex, and don't think that the pronouns other people use to describe me are for me to decide, and so when, as I inevitably will before long, am asked to put 'my' pronouns in my email signature, I want to be able to explain clearly why I will not be doing so.

Also what is your reason for not doing so? I asked before but you didn’t say

Refer back to gender ideology myth 29.
I'll paraphrase it for you: Not everyone feels comfortable putting pronouns in their email signature. No one should be coerced into doing so, nor interrogated as to their reason why they are uncomfortable with doing so.

However since terfypants is looking for a swift way to explain reasons for not going along with the convention, I'll try to offer some advice.

There's always the "gender free" option. When you're free from gender, whatever pronouns anyone wants to use is up to the beholder, (because it'll be basically obvious). Or you could "check woke" the request.
I've stolen this from another thread because it was brilliant.

20:00 ArabellaScott

Refer them to Yogyakarta principle #6:

'Everyone, regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity, is entitled to the enjoyment of privacy without arbitrary or unlawful interference, including with regard to their family, home or correspondence as well as to protection from unlawful attacks on their honour and reputation. The right to privacy ordinarily includes the choice to disclose or not to disclose information relating to one’s sexual orientation or gender identity, as well as decisions and choices regarding both one’s own body and consensual sexual and other relations with others.'
- checkwoke.

No need to disclose your pronouns in either situation, and you're still woke.

I know this isn't in the same league, but I have a friend who is pro fox hunting, whereas I am anti. We have discussed our reasons for our respective views. I respect her right to hold a different view to mine and we have agreed to disagree on that issue and now we don't discuss it.

GC v TRA is clearly a much more volatile area, but do you think you could get to a similar place with your friend, or will she not respect your right to an opposing view?

I use to work in a company where I had lots of email and telephone contact with international students, mostly from south east Asia. I don't have an English name and I cant even tell you the number of times people asked for Mr War or wrote Mr War in emails, as opposed to Ms Women. C'est la vie.

* I don’t really see how having pronouns in emails negatively affects anyone tbh.*

It is very transphobic insisting that transgender or non binary people should out themselves by demanding that they declare their preferred pronouns.
Insisting on this is totally contrary to the Yogyakarta Principles.