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Original poster

Coming out as gender critical

117 replies

terfypants · 13/04/2021 18:26

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

OP posts:
AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/04/2021 17:07

Can I ask if GC folks support the Yogyakarta Principles?

Which ones? There are 29 of them plus additional recommendations and extensions. Grin

More seriously, I can answer your question, though I am not gender critical so you may not care. When the Yogyakarta Principles don't conflict with my other principles then I do support them. And that is mostly. But when they conflict with my other principles then they don't automatically trump everything else. And they are not intended to. The Principles plus 10 document says that there is also discrimination on grounds of sex, which the Yogyakarta Principles do not deal with. And no one kind of discrimination always trumps another.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 17:01

@andyoldlabour

Shedbuilder

"We are the clear-eyed, clear-headed atheists in your temple of gender ideology."

Well said, very succinct.

I agree! his point there is succinct... and egotistical x
jul26m · 14/04/2021 16:57

@NancyDrawed

I find this last point you mention interesting, as I’ve found that many GC folks aren’t respectful of a TRA’s rights to an opposing view from themselves

I can be respectful of another person's right to hold a view while totally opposing it. I have only ever seen evidence of intimidatory tactics TRA to opposition and not in the other direction though.

I suppose we all have different thresholds for what we would deem disrespectful, similar to personal ideas of what is offensive. For example: for me, biology trumps gender identity, would you consider that to be offensive/disrespectful if I said it to you? Or would you disagree while accepting that I have a right to that view even if it clashes with yours?

Interesting, as I’d argue I’ve seen MANY intimidating tactics from the GC side. I think it’s maybe that each side could see the points of view as intimidating from the other?

Honestly, yes I would see that view as disrespectful to people whose lives that view disregards - transgender people who struggle with their gender identity being told that ultimately whatever you were born with between your legs is what you are - is disrespectful. It’s not like transgender is a wildly thought up concept that came into existence last year. It’s protected in law, human rights but it seems many people are happy to ignore their human rights to have their gender identity respected.

NancyDrawed · 14/04/2021 16:09

I find this last point you mention interesting, as I’ve found that many GC folks aren’t respectful of a TRA’s rights to an opposing view from themselves

I can be respectful of another person's right to hold a view while totally opposing it. I have only ever seen evidence of intimidatory tactics TRA to opposition and not in the other direction though.

I suppose we all have different thresholds for what we would deem disrespectful, similar to personal ideas of what is offensive. For example: for me, biology trumps gender identity, would you consider that to be offensive/disrespectful if I said it to you? Or would you disagree while accepting that I have a right to that view even if it clashes with yours?

334bu · 14/04/2021 15:58

Many of us will have friends who have very strong religious beliefs and few of us would tell these people to their face that such beliefs are baseless. However, when the espousing of such beliefs results in harm to vulnerable groups then I think we have to make a stand. Because someone believes in a religion dies not excuse them from blame , if the practising of that religion results in women and girls being treated as property. Equally the belief that someone can change their gender does not excuse them from blame if by promoting this belief results in vulnerable women being raped in so called female prisons.

andyoldlabour · 14/04/2021 15:48

Shedbuilder

"We are the clear-eyed, clear-headed atheists in your temple of gender ideology."

Well said, very succinct.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 15:44

I think the principle that people shouldn't be pressured to out themselves is probably a good one, whatever I feel about any other YP.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 15:42

Can I ask if GC folks support the Yogyakarta Principles?

You'd best set up a surveymonkey, as they're not all on this thread. I imagine there are a range of views about them.

Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 15:40

Ooft touchy. I said preferred as I’ve no clue if you identify as female or male and it would be rude to assume. But that’s good that you’re ok with it, I’d hate for someone to refer to you as he if that wasn’t what you would want to be referred to - brilliant you are so gender fluid about it pronouns!!

No, she's not being touchy or genderfluid. Like me, she just doesn't believe in gender and she's happy to be identified as what she looks like, whether people get it right or wrong. GC people just don't share your faith or your way of classifying people. We are the clear-eyed, clear-headed atheists in your temple of gender ideology.

I'm a short-haired older lesbian and I really don't care if someone calls me sir because I'm comfortable with who I am. I wouldn't even bother to correct anyone who read me wrong. It doesn't matter. I don't need the world to validate me. Perhaps you need to examine why this is so important to you?

334bu · 14/04/2021 14:53

I* I know others are stretching to include people whose opinions they don't agree with, but for me friendship involves having certain values in common — and top of my list is women's material, sex-based human rights not just here in the UK but around the world. Anyone arguing that we need to give them up to anyone who said they were a woman, that woman is not a discrete sex-based class and that the word 'woman' is hate speech could not be a friend of mine. Perhaps an acquaintance or someone I felt residual fondness for because of shared memories, but not a friend. Someone willing to sell her own sex down the river for men is not my friend.*

I agree with this but I also think that many women are blinded by their desire to help people whom they perceive to be vulnerable. It is possible that this friend knows a very vulnerable trans person and their desire to help them has become all important . So perhaps a full frontal attack is not what is needed.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/04/2021 14:45

If it was me I would "hide" her trans posts on Facebook and not sign the petitions, and otherwise continue as normal on other topics and avoid discussing transgender with her at all. It is most unlikely you'll have a "stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas" which does not quickly become a shitshow because you obviously have your position, she obviously has hers, and there is nothing to discuss. Most people will eventually treat silence, lack of likes etc as a tacit agreement to avoid a bone of contention for the sake of friendship.

And "faux innocence" is a really shitty way to approach a friend.

It is very transphobic insisting that transgender or non binary people should out themselves by demanding that they declare their preferred pronouns.

Unfortunately it is also very discriminatory to insist that women in STEM call attention to their sex (or gender) in their emails.

Can't win. Which is why I wouldn't even get into it with someone whose friendship I valued.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 14:34

@334bu

It is really difficult to reason with a zealot and probably useless. However, asking them to explain their beliefs is quite different. For example pronouns, why insist on them when it is transphobic to do so as well as sexist. Do they support the Yogyakarta Principles or not? Perhaps by forcing them to explain they might come to recognise the irrationality of their beliefs.
Can I ask if GC folks support the Yogyakarta Principles?
jul26m · 14/04/2021 14:22

@NancyDrawed

I know this isn't in the same league, but I have a friend who is pro fox hunting, whereas I am anti. We have discussed our reasons for our respective views. I respect her right to hold a different view to mine and we have agreed to disagree on that issue and now we don't discuss it.

GC v TRA is clearly a much more volatile area, but do you think you could get to a similar place with your friend, or will she not respect your right to an opposing view?

I find this last point you mention interesting, as I’ve found that many GC folks aren’t respectful of a TRA’s rights to an opposing view from themselves.
334bu · 14/04/2021 14:17

It is really difficult to reason with a zealot and probably useless. However, asking them to explain their beliefs is quite different. For example pronouns, why insist on them when it is transphobic to do so as well as sexist. Do they support the Yogyakarta Principles or not? Perhaps by forcing them to explain they might come to recognise the irrationality of their beliefs.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 14:01

@Babdoc

jul26m, you are very fortunate that your email recipients think you are male. If you insist on female pronouns, they will immediately and subconsciously downgrade your contributions as “just a woman”. It has been shown that the same email with a male name gets a faster and more respectful response than with a female one. So forcing women to put female pronouns at work will increase sexist discrimination against them. Why should we subscribe to that? At present we can sign off with initials and surname. Long may it continue.
Interesting that this is deemed the solution to sexist discrimination. Thankfully, not every single person I’ve ever encountered in my life is a sexist misogynist and I feel respected in my work place, I of course acknowledge certainly may not be the case for all but I would query if every male they emailed was a sexist misogynist. In all my years of work I’ve never encountered a work place where first names were not used.
jul26m · 14/04/2021 13:56

@terfypants

I’m confused by your comment that you don’t think that the pronouns other people use to describe you are for you to decide... does that mean if you preferred to be she/her but I called you he/him, you’d be ok with that? But I don't 'prefer' to be she/ her. I am female, and people who have met / spoken to me generally choose female pronouns when referring to me. When they don't, which has happened, I'm OK with it, yes.
Ooft touchy. I said preferred as I’ve no clue if you identify as female or male and it would be rude to assume. But that’s good that you’re ok with it, I’d hate for someone to refer to you as he if that wasn’t what you would want to be referred to - brilliant you are so gender fluid about it pronouns!!
Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 13:42

How about saying that you're really troubled by the idea of transwomen being moved into women's prisons in the US, OP, and seeing what she says? If she continues to uphold trans rights on that front, I'm afraid I'd want to end the friendship.

I know others are stretching to include people whose opinions they don't agree with, but for me friendship involves having certain values in common — and top of my list is women's material, sex-based human rights not just here in the UK but around the world. Anyone arguing that we need to give them up to anyone who said they were a woman, that woman is not a discrete sex-based class and that the word 'woman' is hate speech could not be a friend of mine. Perhaps an acquaintance or someone I felt residual fondness for because of shared memories, but not a friend. Someone willing to sell her own sex down the river for men is not my friend.

TalkingtoLangClegintheDark · 14/04/2021 13:30

I don’t think it’s worth trying to initiate a conversation about it to begin with. You can’t have a rational discussion with someone who isn’t rational, as others have said.

It seems that the most important thing to you is to stop colluding in the pretence that you agree with her on this. And if you want to communicate with her at all (as opposed to just giving up on the friendship - I honestly doubt it will survive your “coming out”) I think that’s all you need to say.

“Coming out” is actually a good analogy as this has parallels with a gay person coming out to someone they know to be homophobic. You already know she is prejudiced and bigoted against you. You already know she has assumed something about you that isn’t true because her mindset is so narrow she can’t conceive of you being different to her in this way. You already know she thinks she has the moral high ground, every bit as much as religious people who think their beliefs are sanctioned by their god.

I think it’s important to remember that.

How would you feel about sending something along these lines:

“Dear friend, there’s something I need to let you know.

I’m afraid you have been assuming I feel the same way about trans issues as you do, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. I think that “trans rights” as they are currently pursued are deeply harmful to women’s rights, and as a feminist I am not on board with that.

I am very happy to discuss my views with you if you are interested in engaging on this topic. Equally I am happy for us not to broach the subject if it’s going to be too difficult to resolve.

Either way, you need to know that you are not communicating with an “ally” on this point when you send all those links from a pro-TRA perspective. I have many links I could send you from the GC feminist perspective and would be happy to do so if you are interested in understanding where I’m coming from, but I imagine you feel about those articles the way I feel about the ones you’ve been sending to me.

I realise that this issue is so divisive that our differences here could mean the end of our friendship but while that is not what I wish for, I cannot in good conscience remain silent any longer while you continue to assume I share your stance on this issue. It’s too important to me, just as it’s clearly also important to you.”

Any use?

334bu · 14/04/2021 13:16

Why do you have to throw down the gauntlet? Challenge her. If she says transwomen should go to female prisons, ask her what special measures are in place so that no female prisoner is forced to share a cell with a male prisoner and no female officer is forced to search a male prisoner. Ask questions about women's rights to safety and privacy and how are these being accommodated. Transwomen in rugby, fine but how are you going to avoid injury to women etc.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 13:11

Yes you're right Joody, I was pondering it in more general terms.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 13:11

I say this because I’ve been thinking about this a lot in relation to the toxicity and polarisation of so many issues society is grappling with at the moment. I've have had to admit to myself that, if I’m honest, I’ve fallen into the identitarian trap in the past on other matters. Brexit was a prime example. With hindsight I can say I bought into the overarching narrative that every ‘Leaver’ was at heart an ignorant, xenophobic ‘Little Englander’. As a result, I didn’t really bother engaging with what they were actually saying to any meaningful degree

Me too, Nelly, I could have written your post word for word. I’ve had to have a big rethink on that.

People who think that feminist women who don't think males change sex on their say so and who value their own sex-based rights are a bunch of outdated bigots like racists or homophobes are using a lazy false equivalence to prop up their own shaky position

Absolutely.

As for not using “coming out”, I read an article linked from here just yesterday, written by a transactivist that referred to JKRowling “coming out” as gender critical. Also, am snorfling at the fact that yeah has scolded someone bisexual for saying it Grin awkward!

I have kept people who disagree on this in my life. I’m not saying it hasn’t caused tension, and sometimes I get really frustrated and hurt that they seem willing to take the worst possible interpretation of my views. But if I cut someone out because I don’t agree with them, then I’m not really modelling tolerance and acceptance, am I? I could be wrong on this, as I could be on many things, but for now, I do think that the the long standing friendships with a solid foundation can survive this. I have, however been dropped by a friend for the high crime of saying I didn’t like the word “terf”. We’d never even discussed it, other than me saying those six words. Very reasonable, I’m sure.

JoodyBlue · 14/04/2021 13:05

@terfypants I think it is really well worded. I have a problem myself with any tactical approach to a friendship such as "faux innocence". In my book, if one has a friend, one can be honest with that friend, or the relationship is something other than friendship really. I am not sure I would send it. It would very much depend on how important the friendship is to me going forward. But I wouldn't be able to lie or dissemble. It is again indicative of the toxicity of this issue, that we have to debate the parameters of discussions with our mates.

Original poster
terfypants · 14/04/2021 12:53

@yeahbutnaw

Also, can I just point out that using terminology like "coming out" is insulting to LGBT people.

We have to come out because of innate and immutable characteristics. "coming out" as gender critical is not a thing. It's honestly insulting to draw equivalence with LGBT people for something like this.

Believe me, coming out as bisexual was far less difficult than coming out as gender critical is proving to be...
OP posts:
FourteenthDoctor · 14/04/2021 12:52

Sorry posted too soon - that's what I did and not a word was said about it even though it was very obvious.

FourteenthDoctor · 14/04/2021 12:50

Just send a picture of you on a day out/at the pub wearing a gc t shirt?