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Original poster

Coming out as gender critical

117 replies

terfypants · 13/04/2021 18:26

I'm about to send this message to one of my oldest friends, and am terrified. She is in Canada and is something of a trans rights activist (I'm in UK), and so far I have remained silent when the issue has come up... but its putting a strain on the friendship, so this feels a bit make or break (I'm not expecting her to come round to my way of thinking, but I want to be able to talk about it). Before I hit send, I thought I'd share it here, in the hope that I might get some feedback on tone and content... I found it very difficult to write.

I’m more than a little nervous about broaching this topic, knowing what a polarising issue it is, but increasingly my silence has felt dishonest so – in the hope that this might result in a stimulating discussion and frank exchange of ideas – here goes.
Gender ideology and trans rights activism. It is clear that it is a subject close to your heart, and it is evident that we have very different perspectives on the issue. Given that I think on most things our politics are pretty closely aligned and I know you to be intelligent, thoughtful and compassionate I am genuinely interested in understanding your take on what it means to be trans, and what that means for the rest of society (I’m thinking about the law here, but also things like the practice of stating one’s pronouns).
I’m struggling to succinctly sum up my own feelings on the matter, as there are so many facets to this and I don’t know where to begin, but I guess at root it boils down to the fact that I simply don’t believe we have an innate gender identity or that it is possible to be born in the wrong body, from which starting point much of trans rights activism (in its current incarnation) crumbles. In particular I find the notion of ‘trans children’ deeply disturbing, and cannot see how affirming gender non-conforming children as members of the opposite sex is anything other than sexist, homophobic and cruel.
So what do I think?
That one’s sex is fixed and cannot change. It is also, in the vast majority of situations, irrelevant and should have no bearing on how one is expected to dress or behave. Where it is relevant, though, it is reasonable to draw distinctions on sex based lines – I can’t personally get too worked up about toilets (you know me – I’ll piss anywhere), but in relation to prisons, sports and initiatives intended to counter the under-representation of women in specific arenas it is absolutely appropriate to exclude men, however they identify.
That gender is a useful theoretical tool for analysing how relations between the sexes are structured and behaviour understood. It is not a property of individuals and is not fixed. I would much rather work towards a society in which gender stereotypes are dismantled than one in which they are reified to the point that one’s ‘gender identity’ is seen as more authentic than one’s sex.
That there are people who feel very uncomfortable in their bodies, and dearly wish that they were the opposite sex. This might manifest as feeling that they are ‘really’ a man / woman despite their biology, but this doesn’t make it true – I don’t even know what it means to ‘feel like a woman’ other than by referencing my female biology. For some people the distress of having the ‘wrong’ body might be alleviated by presenting as a member of the opposite sex and modifying their body so it more closely resembles the body they wish they had, but ultimately it is incumbent on everyone to come to terms with the reality of who they are, and it is not reasonable to expect the rest of society to structure itself around maintaining a fiction.
As I said I’m nervous of saying this, and am well aware that attempts at frank and open discussion on the subject don’t always end well. But the more I read on either side of this debate, the more I feel that in many cases people are talking at cross purposes to each other, and that, if only we could get past the knee-jerk reactions and defensiveness on both sides, we may find there is more agreement than we realise. In that spirit, I would love to hear your perspective on some of this stuff.

OP posts:
Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 18:21

I did what? Confused

Walk me through that one again, jul26.

Also, please do feel free to answer my question about these intimidating GC people.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:21

@Helleofabore

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

When every cell in your body is coded to be the sex you were born, how can any surgery change that?

A 'neovagina' is not a vagina no matter how someone may wish it was. A penis formed from skin from a forearm is not a penis either.

Okay, two questions:

  1. what does it matter to you if the cells in their body are “coded to the sex” (let’s say male) they were born whilst they appear and live life as woman? I don’t mean this to sound sarcastic, I just genuinely don’t understand how this can matter to people.

  2. in the example above, I don’t mean to take this discussion down a different road, I just mean it as a simple question to understand the opposing viewpoint to myself - what single sex toilets would you expect this person to use?

Childrenofthestones · 14/04/2021 18:21

OP, is there a subject that your best friend could bring up and sympathetically disagree with you over, that would mean you would end your friendship.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:18

@Sophoclesthefox

I’m more keen to hear about these intimidating tactics fromGC people are than I am to get into another circular conversation about “what is a woman”, to be honest. The boards are replete with those.

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

You feel no compulsion not to be reductive but accuse my point of view as reductive. Ok 👍🏼
Helleofabore · 14/04/2021 18:17

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

When every cell in your body is coded to be the sex you were born, how can any surgery change that?

A 'neovagina' is not a vagina no matter how someone may wish it was. A penis formed from skin from a forearm is not a penis either.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:15

@Sophoclesthefox

How did I get deleted? Confused

I was explaining why feminists might cite the Yogyakarta principles to underline that it might not be helpful to closeted trans people as it would force them to out themselves, which wouldn’t align with the principle of privacy.

Blimey.

I didn’t get to read your post before being deleted unfortunately, don’t think I’m ignoring whatever you had said about that.
jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:14

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

I am hounded as to whether I support the Yogyakarta principles (which I honestly have never heard of being mentioned outside of mumsnet GC forums ironically)

Well, this time it was you that brought them up, I'd never heard of them before. Anyway it doesn't seem like a productive line of enquiry.

They were first brought up by someone in response to me on page 1 on this thread actually...
jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:10

@Ereshkigalangcleg

transgender people who struggle with their gender identity being told that ultimately whatever you were born with between your legs is what you are

People are just pointing out that sex exists, and sometimes it's important. However much they struggle with their identities, it doesn't change the reality of sex, nor does it mean their issues are the only ones which should ever be considered important.

So can I ask what would you deem is the sex of a person born male, who undergoes reassignment surgery and takes the relevant hormones, who now has a vagina and identifies as female?

But on your second point, I’m not really sure where that is relevant. No trans person is so insular that they think there are no other important problems in the world. What exactly are you getting at here?

Shedbuilder · 14/04/2021 17:46

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

I completely agree. I don't believe that self declared gender identity should trump biological sex, and I don't think it is in any way a rational or even a consistent or coherent belief. I acknowledge that people are attached to it, like many beliefs. But that in itself doesn't give it any legitimacy in my eyes.

This. Gender ideology is just like any religious faith. That's why Stonewall had to say TWAW, No Debate — because debate exposes that fact.
NancyDrawed · 14/04/2021 17:38

jul26m

My view (not that this should matter to anyone other than me) is that they would be trans.

In your example, the person would be male, but if presenting to the world as female I would either read them as female or trans. They would still be male, though!

Take Blair White, for example. Blair White looks on screen to be an attractive young woman who cares about appearances. Blair White is also clear that she is trans. Not female, but trans.

This is what I struggle with. Why is Blair White a minority in that she is trans and proud to be trans? It seems that some people who transition are demanding to be accepted as something that they are not, rather than being accepted for who they are.

When I have been in the company of people who are trans I have treated them as people. Not as women or men, but as individuals. It is not up to me to validate someone's view of themselves

GoWalkabout · 14/04/2021 17:38

I'd say, I want to acknowledge that I didn't respond to your post /email about xyz. This is an area where I take a different view to yours - I am gender critical - although I think there is much we agree on. If you do want to discuss the issues I would be very willing to talk about it. Something like that.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 17:36

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

I completely agree. I don't believe that self declared gender identity should trump biological sex, and I don't think it is in any way a rational or even a consistent or coherent belief. I acknowledge that people are attached to it, like many beliefs. But that in itself doesn't give it any legitimacy in my eyes.

334bu · 14/04/2021 17:36

OP does your friend believe that gender identity is different from sex? If that is the case then there us perhaps hope for your friendship. If however, she is so deluded as to believe that people can actually change sex by a simple assertion then there really is no hope for your friendship.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:36

How did I get deleted? Confused

I was explaining why feminists might cite the Yogyakarta principles to underline that it might not be helpful to closeted trans people as it would force them to out themselves, which wouldn’t align with the principle of privacy.

Blimey.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/04/2021 17:35

I am hounded as to whether I support the Yogyakarta principles (which I honestly have never heard of being mentioned outside of mumsnet GC forums ironically)

Well, this time it was you that brought them up, I'd never heard of them before. Anyway it doesn't seem like a productive line of enquiry.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 17:33

FWIW, I don’t agree that what makes men, men and women, women is “what’s between your legs”, which is a pretty reductive way to talk about human beings.

It is.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:32

I’m more keen to hear about these intimidating tactics fromGC people are than I am to get into another circular conversation about “what is a woman”, to be honest. The boards are replete with those.

I don’t feel any compulsion not to be “reductive” about an ideology, to be frank. I cut my teeth on that concept through atheism, and concluded that while I always try and be polite to people, I don’t need to be polite to or about ideologies at all. If people can’t separate that, then that is unfortunate.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:27

I think you’ve misunderstood why people are referring to the Yogyakarta principles here. It’s that one would expect efforts to support trans identified people to adhere to or reflect these governing principles, not that feminists think they’re correct. A trans ally wouldn’t want a closeted trans person to feel pressured into outing themselves in a compulsory pronoun sharing drive, and citing the Yogyakarta principles is one way to illustrate that things that seem on the surface to be helpful possibly aren’t truly helpful.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/04/2021 17:26

transgender people who struggle with their gender identity being told that ultimately whatever you were born with between your legs is what you are

People are just pointing out that sex exists, and sometimes it's important. However much they struggle with their identities, it doesn't change the reality of sex, nor does it mean their issues are the only ones which should ever be considered important.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 17:25

@NancyDrawed

Honestly, yes I would see that view as disrespectful to people whose lives that view disregards

I am not disregarding anybody's life by holding that view, though! Your biological sex is fixed at conception. Whether you then live without being bound to the stereotypes and behaviours that your culture usually expects, based on your sex, is up to you. Your biology is what you are, but not necessarily who you are, if that makes sense?

I think it was Kristina Harrison who said that while she knows every cell in her body is male, that doesn't mean she can't live a fulfilling life being treated by the world at large as if she is female. She knows she is male (the what) and a transwoman (the who).

Okay, I see what you are saying.

Just to clarify, if say, a transwoman (born with male genitals) under went a gender reassignment procedure and took the relevant hormones - would they be consider male or female in your view?

jul26m · 14/04/2021 17:23

@Sophoclesthefox

Interesting, as I’d argue I’ve seen MANY intimidating tactics from the GC side. I think it’s maybe that each side could see the points of view as intimidating from the other?

Can you say a bit more about that, what would the intimidation be?

Its old, because thought I saw you on another thread this morning asking what a “gender critical worldview” was, which I took to mean you didn’t know what being gender critical was. Seems like an hell of an education to get in an afternoon, and my curiosity is piqued.

FWIW, I don’t agree that what makes men, men and women, women is “what’s between your legs”, which is a pretty reductive way to talk about human beings.

I feel I am now understanding the nuances of a GC point of view. I was clarifying if a “worldview” is different from a persons personal point of view and what that would entail or include. I wasn’t sure if I was misunderstanding or if it did really just mean the same thing. Considering that poster apologised for their unclear language I think it’s perfectly reasonable to seek clarification before giving any viewpoints or opinions? its a shame more people on here don’t do this. There is many nuances of the GC community I’m not fully aware of and I am sorry that I am looking to further my understanding of a differing viewpoint .... Confused

What exactly would you say makes men and women different with regards to sex which is not their sexual and reproductive organs?

I’ve seen trans people and the ideology of gender identity spoken about fairly “reductively” on here to be fair.

NancyDrawed · 14/04/2021 17:21

Honestly, yes I would see that view as disrespectful to people whose lives that view disregards

I am not disregarding anybody's life by holding that view, though! Your biological sex is fixed at conception. Whether you then live without being bound to the stereotypes and behaviours that your culture usually expects, based on your sex, is up to you. Your biology is what you are, but not necessarily who you are, if that makes sense?

I think it was Kristina Harrison who said that while she knows every cell in her body is male, that doesn't mean she can't live a fulfilling life being treated by the world at large as if she is female. She knows she is male (the what) and a transwoman (the who).

jul26m · 14/04/2021 17:18

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

Can I ask if GC folks support the Yogyakarta Principles?

Which ones? There are 29 of them plus additional recommendations and extensions. Grin

More seriously, I can answer your question, though I am not gender critical so you may not care. When the Yogyakarta Principles don't conflict with my other principles then I do support them. And that is mostly. But when they conflict with my other principles then they don't automatically trump everything else. And they are not intended to. The Principles plus 10 document says that there is also discrimination on grounds of sex, which the Yogyakarta Principles do not deal with. And no one kind of discrimination always trumps another.

Well I ask this as when I put across a non-gender critical viewpoint I am hounded as to whether I support the Yogyakarta principles (which I honestly have never heard of being mentioned outside of mumsnet GC forums ironically) - so of course I was curious if GC women support them considering the first one is about how everyone no matter their gender identity is entitled to human rights. One human right is the right to self-identify their gender and that misgendering is a form of discrimination - which, apologies if I’m mistaken, but I haven’t come across any GC mumnetter who would agree with this.

I find it ironic that GC mumsnetters push the (15 year old) Yogyakarta principles as why I am obviously so wrong in my support of the transgender community and their activism for correct pronouns (considering this is the stance of the majority of the transgender community and aligning NGOs in 2021 so I’m more inclined to support this as opposed to 15 year old random principles from Indonesia) but I do wonder how much these gender critical folks do for further women’s rights (yunno aside from their anti-trans activism which does nothing to further women’s rights) outside of being mumsnet moaners.

Sophoclesthefox · 14/04/2021 17:16

Interesting, as I’d argue I’ve seen MANY intimidating tactics from the GC side. I think it’s maybe that each side could see the points of view as intimidating from the other?

Can you say a bit more about that, what would the intimidation be?

Its old, because thought I saw you on another thread this morning asking what a “gender critical worldview” was, which I took to mean you didn’t know what being gender critical was. Seems like an hell of an education to get in an afternoon, and my curiosity is piqued.

FWIW, I don’t agree that what makes men, men and women, women is “what’s between your legs”, which is a pretty reductive way to talk about human beings.

peak2021 · 14/04/2021 17:15

I guess OP, you want women to be and to feel safe, especially in places such as changing rooms and refuges. You want sport to be a fair competition. You want personal pronouns to be something you can declare or not, and if you do, everyone respects that.

I wonder if the term gender critical is a label to use in any case, when all you want to do is see women respected and safe.