Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

So just to clarify, you think teachers would be sacked due to being unable to use pronouns at such high volumes? That seems reasonable to you?

If this was the case you'd have no teachers left.

Ok. I'm a liar and a fraud and don't match up to your exacting Mumsnet posting standards. My apologies

Apology accepted, but please be aware that “not making shit up” in discussions is a pretty good life rule to follow, not just “exacting Mumsnet posting standards”.

Or does this go back to only being empathetic to certain people?

I also don't think American employment dismissals are anything to hold up to. Their employment laws and rights are so poor that you can be sacked for all sorts of spurious reasons.

This. Are we thinking it should be a race to the bottom? We have much better legal employment protections here.

There's a difference between repeatedly refusing to use a pronoun and doing so due to either not knowing or not remembering.

I hadn't realised I was on newsnight and didn't phrase it well. I'd forgotten about Mumsnets judge and jury on these boards where you can say whatever you like, as long as you fit the narrative and agenda.

I also don’t understand why someone would think a battle raging through a lifetime to compel people to say something they’re not comfortable saying would be considered a good thing.

Quite. But I think I do understand. You make the understandable mistake of thinking that everyone is reasonable and empathetic.

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

A far higher bar than not putting pronouns in an email.

OK, I said could instead of can.

Backtracking now.

Because I believe moving forward it could be.

Nope, the law will never make pronoun omissions in email a disciplinary in the UK.

In the UK, I'd certainly be in hot water if I refused to use a pronoun yeah.

Forgive me, but are you implying teachers, who in secondary school teach and interact with hundreds of children a day, could be sacked for getting pronouns wrong? How is that manageable considering non binary and neo pronouns are spreading through schools like wildfire? Schools have to treat pupils the same, so insisting on non sexed based pronouns for one means they're all entitled to it.

I also don't think American employment dismissals are anything to hold up to. Their employment laws and rights are so poor that you can be sacked for all sorts of spurious reasons.

The ones who have been sacked for refusing to use pronouns in the US was insubordination.

In an entirely separate scenario, because they were addressing another person in a manner that whilst factually correct, upset that person.

So nothing whatsoever with refusal to dictate to others how they, themselves, preferred to be addressed or for that matter to even have a preference to state.

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

So you admit that when you wrote this:

Except it isn't.

It's happened in America.

And it's happened here when there's a reshuffle or people reapplying for jobs or redundancies, given the current climate, that people have found themselves the one out.

You weren’t exactly being honest?[/quote]
Ok. I'm a liar and a fraud and don't match up to your exacting Mumsnet posting standards. My apologies.

This is two separate arguments.

Do I believe people who are trans and genuinely affected by this should be forced into it? No

Do I think someone behind wide eyed and making their point that they don't believe in trans should be treated with the same compassion?

No.

It's interesting how people claim to be worried about these poor trans people forced into revealing their pronouns ....when they're not busy claiming it isn't really a thing.

@Butwasitherdriveway

So you admit that when you wrote this:

Except it isn't.

It's happened in America.

And it's happened here when there's a reshuffle or people reapplying for jobs or redundancies, given the current climate, that people have found themselves the one out.

You weren’t exactly being honest?

driveway I am concerned for anyone who would be distressed, inconvenienced or frankly baffled by a demand that they state 'their' pronouns.

I don't have any, as I don't believe in compelled speech, so I genuinely couldn't comply in good faith 🤷🏻‍♀️

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

You said:

Butwasitherdriveway

Ereshkigalangcleg
I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

I’m not patronising you. I am asking you to back up the claim that you made that someone has been sacked for failing to put their pronouns in their emails.[/quote]
OK, I said could instead of can. Because I believe moving forward it could be. The ball is rolling.

That OK with you?

@Butwasitherdriveway

That case is the exact opposite of what is being discussed here though.

We are saying we don't "have pronouns" You have said you will be dismissed for not "having pronouns".

The one case you have managed to google is the exact opposite, its someone refusing to refer to someone the way they wanted to be.

I suggest people trying to force people to "have pronouns" are the pronoun harassers here.

I've never actually said I think people should he forced to do it.

But the posters here are not concerned for people who don't want to reveal it. they are concerned for themselves and their own views. As usual. And I just think it's naive to assume that you will always be able to do as you please at work and hope 'but I'm right ' will help.

@Butwasitherdriveway

You said:

Butwasitherdriveway

Ereshkigalangcleg
I'm not putting pronouns in emails because it's pointless. It's impossible to misgender someone when you're talking to them, unless someone takes issue with being referred to as 'you'.

Indeed. I won't be putting pronouns in my email, no matter what scolding and guilt tripping people do over it.
You are of course welcome not to, but in some places, and depending how you refuse, it can be a disciplinary/sackable offence.

I’m not patronising you. I am asking you to back up the claim that you made that someone has been sacked for failing to put their pronouns in their emails.

You just misgendered poor Jonny, driveway.

@Tanith

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.