Page 6 | Why do we need pronouns when we have names?

Cannotgarden · 2021-04-13T11:06:06+00:00

I am admittedly not up to date with the discussion about trans issues but my work has just asked us all to add pronouns onto our email signatures. I'm confused though because most names are gendered and my understanding was that people who wished to pretend to be a different sex, change their name anyway. So why would we need the pronouns? I also find that personally I have no time to spend worrying about my own gender. I am just 'cannotgarden' so does this mean I can have no pronouns and demand that they use my name every time instead? I really wish they'd spend more effort sorting out the huge gender pay issue we have instead [hmm]

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:15

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

And my secondary peers will have 30+ students in at least 4 different classes. I consider that high volume if the pronoun trend continues to rise.

Yes.

But it isn't high volume currently. Or IME it isn't.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:15

@CorvusPurpureus

I think the general ethos here is we try to kick the ball, not the player, so no, you're good.

But you do see that by your own arguments, you've just walked yourself into the boss's office for a bollocking or worse, because said boss has just received an indignant complaint from Jonny that you misgendered them?

& you did it clearly quite 'instinctually', it seems.

Excellent.

But I misread a post on MN about someone I don't know.

That's very different to misgendering Jonny at work.

I'd also be interested to know where I said I think someone should get a row for accidental misgendering. I've been pretty consistent on that.

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 15:15

And my secondary peers will have 30+ students in at least 4 different classes.
I consider that high volume if the pronoun trend continues to rise.

NotBadConsidering · 17/04/2021 15:15

But if people are actively telling me they are refusing for a particular reason ...? Are we not allowed to have an opinion?

Sure. And if someone tells you in your school in real life that they refuse you put pronouns in their email signature because they don’t subscribe to gender beliefs, do you believe that to be a punishable offence? If so, by which means?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:14

James 😂 names.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:14

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I work in a school with 400 pupils. I do cover so interact with each of them. It is a mental load.

Would you like my Qts number as well?

Nah.

Each to their own.

You must have an unusually high volume of pupils who have different pronouns or James.

CorvusPurpureus · 17/04/2021 15:13

I think the general ethos here is we try to kick the ball, not the player, so no, you're good.

But you do see that by your own arguments, you've just walked yourself into the boss's office for a bollocking or worse, because said boss has just received an indignant complaint from Jonny that you misgendered them?

& you did it clearly quite 'instinctually', it seems.

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 15:13

I work in a school with 400 pupils. I do cover so interact with each of them. It is a mental load.

Would you like my Qts number as well?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:11

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

We'll, bully for you. I still maintain people who are not rainman cannot be expected to remember pronouns at high volume.

How about as a challenge, we all state some neo pronouns and you reply instantly to us using the correct ones.

Mine can be reality/based.

I presume you don't work in a school then..

It's not high volume!

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 15:11

We'll, bully for you.
I still maintain people who are not rainman cannot be expected to remember pronouns at high volume.

How about as a challenge, we all state some neo pronouns and you reply instantly to us using the correct ones.

Mine can be reality/based.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:11

@NotBadConsidering

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

So in the real world, you would want to know a person’s motives for not wanting to put pronouns in their email signature? How would that work in the real world rather than the black and white world of MN?

“I notice you haven’t put your pronouns in your email signature, and you have a copy of JK Rowling’s Troubled Blood on your desk. Do we have a problem here?”

It’s all very McCarthy-like.

No.

I don't need to know anything.

But if people are actively telling me they are refusing for a particular reason ...? Are we not allowed to have an opinion?

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:10

@CorvusPurpureus

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

I've caught up.

Nice try, but I was clear about being she /her when I first joined the thread.

I've already had my pounding for not writing clearly, so can we drop the cases thing? Feel free to give me another kicking if you like.

NotBadConsidering · 17/04/2021 15:10

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

So in the real world, you would want to know a person’s motives for not wanting to put pronouns in their email signature? How would that work in the real world rather than the black and white world of MN?

“I notice you haven’t put your pronouns in your email signature, and you have a copy of JK Rowling’s Troubled Blood on your desk. Do we have a problem here?”

It’s all very McCarthy-like.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:09

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

Don't be ridiculous, of course pronouns are instinctual. I can see a stranger in the supermarket and get the right pronoun 99% of the time. I can do it from a photo. A phone call. I can't guess a name as easily.

You remember their pronouns in the same way that I can't 'guess' my colleagues name, but I remember it.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:08

@NotBadConsidering

Your post at 14.30 on page 4. You wrote:

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.

Ahhh yes. You've got me again.

Is it three strikes and I'm out? Or do I just get a black mark?

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 15:08

Don't be ridiculous, of course pronouns are instinctual.
I can see a stranger in the supermarket and get the right pronoun 99% of the time.
I can do it from a photo.
A phone call.
I can't guess a name as easily.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:07

@CorvusPurpureus

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

Sorry you've lost me completely.

Scepticaltank · 17/04/2021 15:07

Do you think routinely challenging your boss means they think you as brave and full of integrity?

I referred to 360 feedback, which is a thing. Maybe not in small companies. It's been around for a loooong time.
surveysparrow.com/blog/best-360-feedback-tools/

Routinely challenging comes over as aggressive? I said sensitively and intelligently. Very different.

Brave and full of integrity? No, its just having good work standards.

If you course you want to berate your boss for having different opinions to you then probably best not to, as it is rude and uncivil and people have a wide range of views in a democracy, it is fantastic.

CorvusPurpureus · 17/04/2021 15:06

Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

I think you possibly identified as a person who had used 'they' around the time you were identifying as a person who knew of multiple cases of people being fired for refusing to add pronouns to their email signatures. Scroll up, or use the filter?

NotBadConsidering · 17/04/2021 15:06

Your post at 14.30 on page 4. You wrote:

Jonny cares.

What is unprofessional, and a bit ridiculous on your behalf, is the fact you think his gender tells you anything about his bed activities.

BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer · 17/04/2021 15:06

I work in s school.
Touche.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:03

Pronouns aren't instinctual unless you are stubborn about it. You learn to accept the person as they sit before you.

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:03

@BuffyTheSlavishIdeologySlayer

I'm not sure you are understanding the dilemma here. I am saying, this is unworkable in practice. You're talking about a nice cosy situation where a name is agreed upon and changed with one pupil. Every member of staff gets notified. Job done. Except now imagine that it's a large school, that child has 10+ teachers. Each of their non binary peers, let's assume low for argument's sake, say 10 percent have non sex based pronouns. Plus potential name changes. Are you telling me you don't see a problem for the mental load of the person having to remember all this? Remember that pronouns are instinctual unlike names, so much more scope to get it wrong.

I work in a school.

I can confidently say I've never worried about the 'mental load', no.

AssassinatedBeauty · 17/04/2021 15:03

Either it's compulsory or it's not. If it's not, then employers have no business asking people why they have chosen not to put pronouns in their email signature,

Butwasitherdriveway · 17/04/2021 15:02

[quote NotBadConsidering]@Butwasitherdriveway

Don't disagree is your reply to AssassinatedBeauty’s post that they will not be compelled to put pronouns in their email. But earlier you said:

It is of course everyone's choice. But you are naive to foot stamp and think that all employees forever will be fine about it, especially in years to come

How do you reconcile this? It reads to me that you don’t want to be compelled either but everyone needs to get on and do it or there’ll be trouble. Do you agree with people being forced to put pronouns in their emails, or not, and is it because of support for trans people or out of fear of the consequences?

You have demonstrated the problem yourself: you were told Jonny’s pronouns and just two minutes later you got them wrong. Imagine if this was your workplace. Do you think you should be in trouble for such an error?[/quote]
Yes, you've made that point, except you still haven't explained where I got Jonny's pronouns wrong. I used them/they, which is what the post was. Where as my mistake?

Since you seem to be very interested in my posts you will have seen that I've said several times I don't think people should be forced to do it , and , this will fry your brain, this is because of trans people who aren't comfortable with that. But Im saying that isn't equatable to women who just don't want to because, and I think it's naive to believe that that sort of attitude won't have some kind of consequences at some point even indirect.

See, because I live in the real world, not in black and white MN when an immediate response to anything is 'Ohhhhh so you think this". It isn't a black and white issue.