Page 9 | Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

XXSex · 2021-04-10T08:38:07+00:00

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released. [[https://www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf]] All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up) What the **** were the department thinking?!!!

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:55

So is the solution simply to guard against any potential violence from men?
Yes. Until men stop being violent we absolutely should guard against the potential of violence. That’s basic Safeguarding!

Rather than seek to change the way some men are brought up and their mindset surrounding violence.
This should be done. Absolutely. But until it’s resolved point above stands.

OP posts:

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:52

@Whatwouldscullydo

Oh yeah we forgot didn't we Naice well behaved western boys don't hurt anyone and if they did it was probably the girls fault being there when he was.

The difference is in.skmgle sex spaces you can have the gaps at the bottom that would allow it to he seen that someone needed help.. And you have the first line of defence against assault in tact. You would know a boy entering that space was up to no good by the very act of going in there..

As opposed to just having to hope that the boy in the mixed sex area isn't up to no good and if he was u can't see two sets of feet under the door and so ut all goes unnoticed.

It’s you that keeps bringing up “western boys”. Odd.

Many single sex toilets are also floor to ceiling.... and many wouldn’t see the two sets of feet if she’s the only person in the single sex toilets that are behind a closed door rather than open plan.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:50

@XXSex

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

That kind of reads as if it will be the trans boys fault if they anything happens to them. That they have thought through the pros and cons already and clearly this is a possibility.
Boys are more violent than girls. Fact.

Substitute that sentence with the woman knew the alleyway was darker to walk home. But it was quicker. She weighed up the pros and cons.

Words in my mouth. That’s not what I’m saying. If they attend and there is a safety issue than that is the fault of the perpetrator and the perpetrator should face the harshest punishment. I would also say the same about the woman and the alleyway. Again, not my opinion whichever she chooses. If it was me, I wouldn’t take the alleyway whilst I would continue to advocate for women to feel safer in spaces by advocating for attempts to reducing violence.

So is the solution simply to guard against any potential violence from men? Rather than seek to change the way some men are brought up and their mindset surrounding violence.

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/04/2021 18:50

Oh yeah we forgot didn't we
Naice well behaved western boys don't hurt anyone and if they did it was probably the girls fault being there when he was.

The difference is in.skmgle sex spaces you can have the gaps at the bottom that would allow it to he seen that someone needed help.. And you have the first line of defence against assault in tact. You would know a boy entering that space was up to no good by the very act of going in there..

As opposed to just having to hope that the boy in the mixed sex area isn't up to no good and if he was u can't see two sets of feet under the door and so ut all goes unnoticed.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:46

@Whatwouldscullydo

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space

That's lay out

Many schools have open plan single sex.

So again. What are the benefits

I don’t really get what the point is.

One of the main points raised to me is that open plan was bad because girls have to wash their bloody period hands in full view of everyone - this would be the case in open plan single sex toilets too and boys could still see this as it’s not behind closed doors.

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:44

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

That kind of reads as if it will be the trans boys fault if they anything happens to them. That they have thought through the pros and cons already and clearly this is a possibility.
Boys are more violent than girls. Fact.

Substitute that sentence with the woman knew the alleyway was darker to walk home. But it was quicker. She weighed up the pros and cons.

OP posts:

AliceMcK · 14/04/2021 18:41

@Zandathepanda

Having rescued 2 people from behind toilet doors having seizures, there’s going to be a lot going on behind the doors people can’t see. There is a gap underneath doors for a reason.

I was thinking the same thing. Someone could be being raped behind that door and no one would know.

malloo · 14/04/2021 18:39

OK, that's interesting jul26m, thanks for your response.

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/04/2021 18:39

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space

That's lay out

Many schools have open plan single sex.

So again. What are the benefits

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:38

If you’d like a more up to date one - this is currently draft from2020 consult.education.gov.uk/safeguarding-in-schools-team/keeping-children-safe-in-education-2020/supporting_documents/Sexual%20violence%20and%20sexual%20harassment%202020.pdf

OP posts:

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:37

@jul26m

So excuse me, if I don’t believe that your many newspapers put across the view of every female faced with mixed sex toilets.

This is not about your feelings on the matter and who shares these feelings. This is about the facts.

Here are the facts -
publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmwomeq/91/91.pdf

And these trump your feelings.

OP posts:

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:34

@malloo

I didn’t quite clearly say that. I said not all boys in schools are violent criminals.

Absolutely, I agree. But what recent publicity on this issue has shown is that clearly some boys do sexually harass, assault and rape girls.

So I'm interested to know if you think a transboy would be safe in an all boys school? Because I don't think they would be and this gets to the heart of why single sex spaces are important. When it comes to keeping girls and transboys safe it is sex not gender that must be prioritised.

It would depend on a number of factors, such as the values of that school and ultimately, if that boy would like to attend. If they would, they have clearly weighed up the pros and cons and made their decision accordingly. They shouldn’t have to attend if they don’t believe they would be safe, as of course mixed sex schools are available, but I’m not sure I, someone who has never attended an all boys school or had the mindset of a trans boy, could make this call.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:32

So excuse me, if I don’t believe that your many newspapers put across the view of every female faced with mixed sex toilets.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:31

@XXSex

On the one side *@jul26m* has one school, evidence, no sample size, no published evidence.

On the other side we have multiple newspapers, multiple papers written, multiple newspapers and court papers.

You’ll have to excuse me @jul26m but the weight of evidence of thin on the ground on your side!

Oh I’m sorry, I didn’t realise this was a competition.

But I assume that even if I had managed to provide you published evidence of this, you’d still have argued it down so I’m really unsure why you continued to question me other than to be pedantic and patronising.

It’s also worth noting that newspapers, papers, more newspapers and court papers do not put across everyone’s opinion. It puts across the opinion and actions or events of those that shout the loudest.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:28

@Whatwouldscullydo

What positives does mixed sec spaces give?

Forget the lay out or how nice and shiny it is which would obviously be preferable to crumbling ceilings with no loo roll.

But specifically with children at school, what benefit does a mixed sex area have? Because all you have realky sited is lay outs. Which cab he applied to single.sex too. So there's nothing special about the area besides extra supervision and lay out that wouldn't solve the problems in single.sex areas too.

So, what benefits are there to teaching children that sharing with eachother even when half naked vulnerable etc ? What lesson does that teach?

Fully enclosed loos also present their own issues. In the event of fainting , allergic reaction, asthma attack, collapse, epileptic fit, rape and miscarriage, you cannot see what's happening.. nor cab you climb over ir under the door if it won't open due to the location of the person inside.

Are you aware many public buildings these days in single sex toilets still have fully enclosed cubicles with no gap above or below?

I’m not sure why they would be half naked in the open plan mixed space. They would be using the toilet behind the closed door. Then emerging to wash their hands.

Staff supervision cannot be applied to single sex toilets behind a closed door as it can to an open plan mixed sex toilet space.

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:28

On the one side @jul26m has one school, evidence, no sample size, no published evidence.

On the other side we have multiple newspapers, multiple papers written, multiple newspapers and court papers.

You’ll have to excuse me @jul26m but the weight of evidence of thin on the ground on your side!

OP posts:

malloo · 14/04/2021 18:27

I didn’t quite clearly say that. I said not all boys in schools are violent criminals.

Absolutely, I agree. But what recent publicity on this issue has shown is that clearly some boys do sexually harass, assault and rape girls.

So I'm interested to know if you think a transboy would be safe in an all boys school? Because I don't think they would be and this gets to the heart of why single sex spaces are important. When it comes to keeping girls and transboys safe it is sex not gender that must be prioritised.

worriedatthemoment · 14/04/2021 18:26

Im sure my kids school in uk has one set toilets like this and it wasn't just girls that kicked off , boys said they felt uncomfortable too for various reasons
Difference being this was just one set and they still have separate sets also so I didn't have an issue as it covered all this way
My ds never uses school loos anyway if he can help it as says they are also grim

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:26

[quote XXSex]@jul26m where is the evidence Public for this?[/quote]
It isn’t public. This was a campaign within the school. This information would not be shared publicly along with the school name. I said this was my experience. If there was public information alongside I would have shared it.

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:25

@Notoriouslynotnotious

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.

I’m also not sure what point you are trying to make here either .

To me it is not up to women to give up their dignity and privacy to carry out sex based biological functions to validate someone else’s identity.

So can I confirm that you’d also expect trans men prior to sexual reassignment, someone who looks as you may suspect a “typical” man to look but has a vagina, to use the female toilets? As per their biological functions.

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:23

@jul26m where is the evidence Public for this?

OP posts:

jul26m · 14/04/2021 18:23

@XXSex

Certainly in my experience, girls have reported a huge reduction in intimidating behaviour from the same sex and bullying in the toilets at school. 204 girls (in a school with 310 girls) came forward to actively campaign for them to stay that way as opposed to changing them back to single sex toilets. Oddly from the other side, 95 boys campaigned and only 14 girls to change them back. So they clearly do have benefits to girls.

@jul26m - where is this from?

This is from the school in which I work in.

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:23

And I know that this has changed tack slightly and we’re discussing trans woman and trans men. That is a corollary of this situation. This is NOT the main point of this thread as many other posters have raised above. This is about dignity and privacy for girls and boys.

OP posts:

Original poster

XXSex · 14/04/2021 18:20

Certainly in my experience, girls have reported a huge reduction in intimidating behaviour from the same sex and bullying in the toilets at school. 204 girls (in a school with 310 girls) came forward to actively campaign for them to stay that way as opposed to changing them back to single sex toilets. Oddly from the other side, 95 boys campaigned and only 14 girls to change them back. So they clearly do have benefits to girls.

@jul26m - where is this from?

OP posts:

Whatwouldscullydo · 14/04/2021 18:10

Trans men require tbe sanitary dispenser and bin like other women do so yes they of course shoukd be welcome in womens loos.

If they choose to use the mens and men have a problem with that theh that's fir men to sort. We aren't everyones mother we don't have to solve everyones problems whilst still having to try and sort out our own