Page 7 | Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

XXSex · 2021-04-10T08:38:07+00:00

I am LIVID!!! New technical guidance has been released. [[https://www.education.ie/en/School-Design/Technical-Guidance-Documents/Current-Technical-Guidance/sdg-02-06-sanitary-facilities-april-2021-.pdf]] All mixed sex. Hand basin outside the WC (WAH your bloody hands in front of boys). Doors down to the floor (any one else see an issue in a mixed sex school with mixed sex toilets with this set up) What the **** were the department thinking?!!!

PearPickingPorky · 16/04/2021 07:20

hears*

PearPickingPorky · 16/04/2021 07:20

I'm a teacher in a school in SE that has this new layout and to be honest I have not heard many complaints from girls.

Nobody ever heard complaints from girls, or women. It never seems to be at the right frequency.

PearPickingPorky · 16/04/2021 07:17

Jul26m I assume, like Sugar, you are also in favour of having toilets segregated by sex, for the female children who need or prefer them, and having some better-designed mixed-sex options available in addition?

Also interested in why you think Scottish boys might be less inclined towards violence and sexual violence than English boys?

HipTightOnions · 16/04/2021 07:13

It has also meant the area is typically cleaner than say, boys toilets. So overall standards are higher.

So, nicer for the boys but less nice for the girls. Great.

EyesOpening · 16/04/2021 07:00

piddocktrumperiness you say you haven’t heard many complaints from girls, aside from the fact this implies there are some, has anyone actually outright asked the pupils how they feel, preferably so they can answer anonymously? Other people have said that they know of pupils who have, like you say the girls needing to fix their hijabs, found ways around it, such as going to the house of a pupil who lives nearby and not drinking to avoid needing to go. I imagine there are a lot of pupils who wouldn’t speak up voluntarily or even if asked, if it’s not anonymously.

piddocktrumperiness · 16/04/2021 06:41

I'm a teacher in a school in SE that has this new layout and to be honest I have not heard many complaints from girls. I have had a few issues from girls wanting fix their hijab and not finding a space to do so but even they have found ways around it, although not really ideal for them I admit.

It is widely open and there are staff monitoring the corridor during break and lunches, from my experience as I was on duty in those areas. Credit to the kids they do just walk in and out and boys wash their hands because they are seen and can see the teacher hovering around. Also, the fact that it is so open actually has helped behaviour. It has also meant the area is typically cleaner than say, boys toilets. So overall standards are higher.

I hated the idea at the beginning but it hasn't created many problems. What I don't like, which is what we also have in the building is a unisex toilet space where the main doors are closed; a few cubicles, and shared washing space- I can't know what is happening in there. Those are for 6th formers.

AnyOldPrion · 16/04/2021 06:29

Ireland really are jumping into this with both feet. The countries embracing this are an odd mixture. It would be interesting to analyse what they have in common, if anything.

PearPickingPorky · 16/04/2021 05:25

@ASugarr

Glasgow have been trailing it. Plus schools in england have opened up their bathrooms so one side is males and the other is females, but are within the same room. And so far no issues have come up.

Yes, our local schools have moved to mixed-sex loos.

Loads of girls now avoid using the loos at school because they hate sharing with the boys. Including the younger primary school girls. The seats are all covered in pee.

The secondary girls avoid drinking water during the day so they don't need to use them. They don't want to use or get tampons and pads in mixed-sex loos. Girls are trying to skip school when they have their period because they are petrified of ending up in that position and are in constant fear during their period of leaking blood, due to trying to avoid changing pads and tampons until they get home, and because boys would see them trying to clean up the blood after.

It's an unmitigated disaster. For the girls. But I doubt their discomfort is a factor.

Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 22:05

Sorry to be so negative. Well done for being pro active! Honestly that is a very good thing to do.

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 22:04

@therestissilence

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

That would be great but not an option in Ireland. All new schools will be built with mixed sex toilets. We don’t have independent schools here. Even the fee paying schools are partially funded by the state.

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therestissilence · 15/04/2021 21:58

@therestissilence

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

'their' way.

therestissilence · 15/04/2021 21:57

I had a meeting with my daughter's Head Teacher just before lockdown. I wanted to make sure none of this trans mind-fuc*ery would be inflicted on my DC. HT looked at me like I was mad (I don't blame her!), and said she had heard nothing about any of it. I left her with a Transgender Trend brochure. This was an independent school, but I'd recommend getting a meeting with your kids' Headteacher, and communicating to them the issues - in a human voice - before all the text-based, over-composed, skewed 'literature' comes there way.

Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 21:19

3 of the protected characteristics under the Equal Status Act will be negatively affected

disability
gender
religion

If an Equality Impact Assessment has been done then I presume that all of these points have arisen and ignored.

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 18:07

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

Ultimately this change in policy risks excluding some female people from being able to access any facilities at all, reduces their inclusion in society and access to public life and potentially severely interrupts their education.

there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
no urinals will slow down boys toileting
boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier and smellier toilets
query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
poorly placed Sanitary bin
having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
risk that girls might not attend school during their period

not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
passive supervision not possible if children use the toilets during classes (requests cannot be unreasonably refused)
since these facilities will be used by outside parties outside of school hours it will be easier to install voyeur equipment due to easier access (and teenage schoolboys might also place these items)
anecdotal evidence that schools which were built like this reverted back to single sex a few years later (due to some of the points raised above

And to provide balance

anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets
mixed sex toilets would meet diversity and inclusion for non binary children

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 18:00

@CrazyNeighbour

.... also he has a meeting at the school tomorrow, promised to ask about the issues from the school and said he would get back to me.

Keep us posted!

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CrazyNeighbour · 15/04/2021 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

CrazyNeighbour · 15/04/2021 17:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 17:47

since these facilities will be used by outside parties outside of school hours it will be easier to install voyeur equipment due to easier access
anecdotal evidence that schools which were built like this reverted back to single sex a few years later (due to some of the points raised above

WHO ON EARTH THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 17:44

@3timeslucky

I'd add:

not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
for Irish primary schools it is a retrograde step from recent builds where toilets were built off each classroom allowing teachers to be sure no children are wandering the corridors, bullying, being bullied or damaging the toilets while on a trip to the toilet

Thanks. Didn’t add the third bullet point as the en suite toilets are still a feature in primary schools - section 6 of the document. However I did use the contents in a slightly changed bullet point.

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 17:43

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
no urinals will slow down boys toileting
boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
poorly placed Sanitary bin
having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
risk that girls might not attend school during their period

not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
passive supervision not possible off children use the toilets during classes

And to provide balance

anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets

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Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 17:39

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

Mixed sex spaces l

there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
no urinals will slow down boys toileting
boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
poorly placed Sanitary bin
having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
risk that girls might not attend school during their period
embarrassment during diarrhoea
ease of cleaning (difficult to clean behind the door) so risk of toilets becoming dirty
risk that of the boys don’t close the door that there might inadvertently “flash”
risk that children with learning disabilities will leave the door open. More embarrassing in front of (and in direct view given the set up) the opposite sex. Might lead to teasing and bullying
lots of media clippings and findings that mixed sex spaces are less safe for women and girls
more expensive to provide a to the floor door
trapping of odours within the cubicle more likely
Safeguarding
UNESCO fight for single sex spaces for girls in schools in the developing world. Why odds out different for Ireland?
girls not drinking enough at school to avoid having to use the toilet - bad for their health but also dangerous during sport or hot weather or over heated classrooms

And to provide balance

anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets
mixed sex toilets would meet diversity and inclusion for non binary children

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3timeslucky · 15/04/2021 17:31

I'd add:

not clear that teachers or principals were consulted about the passive supervision aspect, the risks inherent in the set-up or any other short-comings they might see
not clear that students will restrict themselves to their (carefully colour-coded) cubicles
for Irish primary schools it is a retrograde step from recent builds where toilets were built off each classroom allowing teachers to be sure no children are wandering the corridors, bullying, being bullied or damaging the toilets while on a trip to the toilet

Zandathepanda · 15/04/2021 17:09

And to go one step further: Cleaning the diarrhoea (and wee) is easier with a gap at the bottom of the door - another reason gaps are there in public toilets.

alkanet · 15/04/2021 16:40

Diarrhoea

Sorry to bring the conversation to this, but it's embarrassing enough in same sex toilets. Couldn't imagine the mortification for a child to be caught short and have to clean up with members of the opposite sex.

Original poster

XXSex · 15/04/2021 16:23

Summarising the issues as outlined in the thread (if I’ve missed any please point them out)

Mixed sex spaces l

there is an exemption allowed for in the Equal Status Act that allows for single sex spaces
no urinals will slow down boys toileting
boys are less likely to lift the seat resulting in messier toilets
query over whether boys will close the door when peeing
opening period products causes girls embarrassment even in the presence of other girls
girls personal and private bodily functions can be monitored by their male peers and indeed a few posters provided anecdotal evidence that boys knock ferociously on the doors when period products are opened
some girls need to wash blood from clothing and or hands and this is made impossible by sharing facilities with boys
poorly placed Sanitary bin
having to buy from the period products dispenser in full view of the boys
Muslim or Jewish communities won’t be able to use these facilities
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps, more will be happening inside those toilets (drugs, sex, assault, sexual assault)
Because of the toilets NOT having gaps out won’t be possible to see if someone has fainted inside
passive supervision of toilet areas unlikely as teachers have enough to be doing
a teacher can’t question a boy I n the girls bathroom as they have a right to be within 1m of them
this change appears to have happened without parents being consulted
it’s not known of an Equality Impact Assessment was carried out
the submission to the UK Parliament on sexual harassment in schools
there will be an increase in costs for all cubicles rather than urinals and cubicles
risk that both boys and girls might hold in their urine because of embarrassment
risk that girls might not attend school during their period

-

And to provide balance

anecdotal evidence from one school that both girls and boys want mixed sex toilets

OP posts: