Ireland will no longer be providing single sex toilets in primary and secondary schools!!!

What positives does mixed sec spaces give?

Forget the lay out or how nice and shiny it is which would obviously be preferable to crumbling ceilings with no loo roll.

But specifically with children at school, what benefit does a mixed sex area have? Because all you have realky sited is lay outs. Which cab he applied to single.sex too. So there's nothing special about the area besides extra supervision and lay out that wouldn't solve the problems in single.sex areas too.

So, what benefits are there to teaching children that sharing with eachother even when half naked vulnerable etc ? What lesson does that teach?

Fully enclosed loos also present their own issues. In the event of fainting , allergic reaction, asthma attack, collapse, epileptic fit, rape and miscarriage, you cannot see what's happening.. nor cab you climb over ir under the door if it won't open due to the location of the person inside.

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.

I’m also not sure what point you are trying to make here either .

To me it is not up to women to give up their dignity and privacy to carry out sex based biological functions to validate someone else’s identity.

They are simply sharing their single sexed space with another female.

Can I just clarify, is a trans man who resembles what you’d traditionally consider a “man” to look, walks into the female toilets you wouldn’t blink an eye and would see that as acceptable? If trans women should be using male toilets, it must work both ways.

Is a single sex toilet really the only place children and teenagers get privacy? I would disagree this erodes privacy. It’s not like they are being expected to do their business in a trough in the middle of the corridor.

You said there are safety issues with males who identify as women using men's loos.

I'm.wonsering why that's no on males to solve. Male sure their spaces are welcoming to all males regardless of their presentation.

Why is it a problem.women have to solve?

I wholeheartedly agree that trans women should use female toilets if single sex toilets are the facilities in order to be “validated in their adopted gender.”

Surely they will just do what women are suloosed to fo?

Call the police?

Male violence is up to men/males to solve. Women and girls are not support humans for males

Can you give more information on how exactly this person attending toilets that match their gender identity excludes some females accessing facilities? I’m obviously not aware of these issues in as much depth as you are.

Women want their private spaces so they can carry out sex based bodily functions with dignity and in privacy. Safety is only part of the consideration.

many GC threads perpetuate this idea that many trans women are just transitioning so they can sexually assault women in toilets etc.

Transwomen want to use women’s space not for reasons of safety, because then they would be happy to have a third space that accommodated both sexes and all genders, but so that they can be validated in their adopted gender. That is the

And the whole 'you're just fussing that all male people are rapists' exaggeration wholly misses a key point:

To include male people in female facilities and give them their preferred choice from all the available facilities for their wellbeing and to value their sense of self involves excluding some female people from being able to access any facilities at all and reduces their inclusion in society and access to public life .

Huge great enormous issue right there if you care about equality, inclusion, kindness, social justice and diversity.

many GC threads perpetuate this idea that many trans women are just transitioning so they can sexually assault women in toilets etc.

No, many GC threads continue to point out the reality that there is no possible way to tell the difference between a male person genuinely transitioning and a male person who would like to access female people in female facilities in a state of undress to carry out a sexual assault. To admit one means you have to admit and expose females to the risk of the other. And to do so means that you regard the risk and possible outcomes to female people as a class being worth it for the benefit of the genuinely transitioned male people. Which is sexist to put it mildly, and something female people definitely have the right to be talking about and questioning, since they weren't born to be cannon fodder and have rights too.

I'm afraid the downsides for female people have to be faced up to.

In prison, everyone is fundamentally a criminal and many could have a violent past. This is not the case in schools - so I was unsure what exactly @MichelleofzeResistance was getting at.

All boys in schools are nice then? Did you miss Everyone's Invited?

What gender someone has has zero implications on their toilet needs of their sexed bodies.

For those needs the privacy and dignity if single sex facilities is vital.

Given the problems we have of funding in schools and period poverty wasting money on special bins fir all the toilets as opposed to half and risking the stuff being thrown about by the boys seems daft

In prison, everyone is fundamentally a criminal and many could have a violent past. This is not the case in schools - so I was unsure what exactly @MichelleofzeResistance was getting at.

That anyone who identifies as a different gender from their sex is going to rape women?

Rather radical interpretation of the text?

As I said: Will be interesting to see if teenagers with GRCs find that it works equally well for both sexes in identifying into single sex schools. I suspect like prisons there will be sex based reasons why it won't.

I suspect teenagers born female will have less opportunity and equality in being able to access single sex schools for boys than teenagers born male will have in being able to access single sex schools for girls.

And I suspect that if this is the case, it will be down to the same reasons that the govt will not under any circumstances place a TM into the male prison estate. Because the safety of the TM could not be reasonably managed in a male environment. Because sex continues to matter.

jul26m

Will be interesting to see if teenagers with GRCs find that it works equally well for both sexes in identifying into single sex schools. I suspect like prisons there will be sex based reasons why it won't.

What are you suggesting here?

That anyone who identifies as a different gender from their sex is going to rape women?

No, of course not, strange thing to say. I expect what Michelle means is that it would not be safe for a transboy to be in a single sex boys school just as it would not be safe for a transman to be housed with male prisoners, for obvious reasons.

You will see however from the links posted elsewhere in the thread we have a massive problem with sexual assults and sexual harassment in state akd private schools.

Also normalisation of no privacy is not a good lesson to be teaching children.

Sharing with classmates they have none for years is hugely different to being alone in a train station after work in the event and having to share that space with a large adult male stranger.

There's a word we sadly cannot use when speaking about the process in normalisation of dangerous situations that begins as children that they take throughout being adults

No particular problem with individual self contained toilets, including a washbasin & mirror, opening out on to a corridor (except I suspect they'd be whiffy).

Why would they need to be mixed sex? Why not have toilets like this for each sex, in separate areas?

Certainly in my experience, girls have reported a huge reduction in intimidating behaviour from the same sex and bullying in the toilets at school. 204 girls (in a school with 310 girls) came forward to actively campaign for them to stay that way as opposed to changing them back to single sex toilets. Oddly from the other side, 95 boys campaigned and only 14 girls to change them back. So they clearly do have benefits to girls.

Well In other countries charities campaign for single sex provision for girls.

Is there something different about western boys and men?

Assults are more likely in mixed sex environments. What benefit to girls is a mixed sex toilet?

I honestly find these GC forums so amusing but bizarre at the same time. Non-GC a folks question them on their beliefs and they put patronisingly put us down to mantras and tropes and can’t actually explain themselves further? Really helps demonstrate how solid your view is... Honestly bizarre.