Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminists are not fascists - a reply to RS21 - the splitters split over being gender critical

34 replies

stumbledin · 07/04/2021 17:07

Not likely to shake the political world but thought its good to know some small fringe groups are listening to women!

... Those of us committed to a Marxism based on material reality, and one which challenges wrong ideas, cannot accept it. In Britain and Ireland women are asserting that their sex is real. Labelling them as fascists is just one more misogynistic insult. ...

socialistdemocracy.org/RecentArticles/RecentFeministsAreNotFascistsAReplyToRS21.html

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
stumbledin · 08/04/2021 14:24

I sort of assumed it was a lot of young people behaving in this cultish way. But then you wonder is it also older people feeding these delusions so as to entrap them into whatever their political agenda is.

But the original article this one is in response to is just shocking.

Even allowing for this being the fringe of a fringe are we going to end up having our lives run by people who view the world in this way.

Am waiting for the arrival of lizards. Grin

OP posts:
Imnobody4 · 08/04/2021 09:25

Interesting article. It's sad to see a political movement spinning off into delusional lunacy and complete irrelevance.

allmywhat · 08/04/2021 09:07

fascist conception of the child”... they “organise child abuse”

oooh, I think I know this one, is it projection?

Perhaps I'm jaded by the TERF wars but I suspect the "fascist conception of the child" referred to here includes crazy authoritarian ideas about how children should not have sex with adults as well as the belief that kids shouldn't get tattoos on their face or get cross-sex hormones till they're 18.

ByGrabtharsHammerWhatASavings · 08/04/2021 08:52

He modifies the abusive label “TERF” from the customary “trans exclusionary radical feminists” to “trans exterminatory”. As the video goes on he talks of ‘gender critical feminists’ as having “a fascist conception of the child”. He tells his listeners that they are “eugenicists”; they “enact political violence”; their end game is “total trans extermination”; they “organise child abuse”

This is really some QAnon level conspiracy theory paranoid delusions. Imagine genuinely believing that women who think biological sex is real and who want to retain their existing legal rights are therefore part of some eugenicist child abuse fascist plot to exterminate trans people?! I mean, we're talking about ideas that are mainstream across most of the population of the world. That must be terrifying if that's what you believe.

Seriously, if you are reading this and that's what you think you need to get some help. You belong to an extremely unhealthy and entirely untrue belief system that has a clear vested interest in keeping you paralysed with fear over an imaginary threat. It's not you fault and it's not too late to get out. Reach out to people who love you, tell them you want help to leave. Most likely they have been worried about you for a long time and will support you to exit safely. If these are the ideas you're being fed then the real world is nothing like you have been lead to believe.

Crepescular · 08/04/2021 08:23

@yeahbutnaw

I don't think anyone would argue with the statement that "feminists aren't fascists".

But it's also true that most feminists don't subscribe to anti-trans ideology. So there's that.

Feminism is about women. It's a pro-woman philosophy and political movement.

Transwomen are men. Men pretending to be women. So, by their sex, they're excluded from feminism.

Simple, really.

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 07/04/2021 23:06

You can be pro-women's rights and pro-trans rights.

How does that work when male-born transpeople want access to women’s single-sex facilities, or women’s sport contests or jobs as women’s officer?

Abhannmor · 07/04/2021 20:08

A good article Stumbledin. Rumblings of GC socialism asserting itself at last ?

PlonitbatPlonit · 07/04/2021 20:08

I thought it was well written and I hope RS21 have the courage of their convictions and say whether they agree with the logical consequences of the video they've posted - which is that feminists should be driven out of the labour movement.

Doyoumind · 07/04/2021 20:04

Whenever anyone comes up with this kind of argument it only confirms a) they don't know what feminism is and b) they don't know what fascism is.

The 'everyone I don't like is Hitler' thing is spot on. Sheer stupidity and ignorance.

Abhannmor · 07/04/2021 19:57

You can support both up to the point they start to conflict with each other.

StrangeLookingParasite · 07/04/2021 19:52

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here. The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

Feminists are not fascists - a reply to RS21 - the splitters split over being gender critical
MeltsAway · 07/04/2021 19:40

I support both female only spaces for some things for the privacy, dignity, safety and emotional well-being of women and girls, and also the right for trans people to have legal protection from being discriminated against due to their identity

Me too.

MichelleofzeResistance · 07/04/2021 19:36

It is not women who continually try to force the idea that women having rights and caring about women is intrinsically harmful to trans people. And that the only way to be 'pro' trans people (not even sure what that means) is for women to surrender their rights.

It's a very odd point of view.

It does not matter how much it is attempted to minimise the number of women with concerns, with incompatible needs - as if making them a minority devalues them and makes them too unimportant to care about.

You are still saying some women are not able to have their needs met by abandoning sex based needs. Some women say no. Some women will be excluded and harmed by this.

and that doesn't matter .

Yes. I'm afraid women do matter too. And at 51% of the population, the number of women likely to have needs and issues that are incompatible with losing sex based rights will be much larger than the less than 1% of the population who are trans.

And yet you are not arguing that they are too small a number to be relevant or cared about.

Solutions must work for everyone. If you want to see that as an evil pov then I'm afraid that's your problem.

Erkrie · 07/04/2021 19:30

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

There isn't anti trans ideology here. There's pro women's rights though. Which includes trans men as biological women.

The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

Trans people have human rights. Obviously human rights aren't a threat to women's rights. Transwomen don't have women's rights though if that's what you mean. So yes, if they are seeking to appropriate rights meant for the female sex, then yes this is a threat to women's rights and safety. But only someone with their head deliberately buried in the sand, or someone with nefarious reasons would suggest otherwise.

If your vast majority is made up of a bunch of angry transwomen, MRAs (neither who are feminists anyway) and their blue haired allies, then you'll find this isn't anywhere near a vast majority at all.

stumbledin · 07/04/2021 19:15

Did anyone read the article? ie why this breakaway group from the breakaway is challenging?

... Fascism is not networks of left feminists who argue that one does not change biological sex by an act of will, instead arguing that it is a material biological reality with social significance due to sexism.

In the first of their videos RS21 publish without commentary, context or qualification a contribution giving “a lowdown on transphobia in Britain over the last decade” by Evren, a trans activist and podcaster.

Where do these views lead?

Evren makes no discernible distinction between genuine fascist movements and active feminists. He modifies the abusive label “TERF” from the customary “trans exclusionary radical feminists” to “trans exterminatory”. As the video goes on he talks of ‘gender critical feminists’ as having “a fascist conception of the child”. He tells his listeners that they are “eugenicists”; they “enact political violence”; their end game is “total trans extermination”; they “organise child abuse”. The only distinction he makes is that they are a “weirdly gender crank version of other fascists”. Assertion follows assertion and no evidence of any sort is presented for any of these claims.

Marxists who accept this line of argument have clear responsibilities. It is their job to drive out of the labour movement the activists, who are overwhelmingly female, that hold these views These women must be made pariahs. Feminist meetings must be disrupted by huge counter-mobilisations and physical violence where necessary. Anyone familiar with Trotsky’s writings on fascism, or how the SWP occasionally challenged the British National Party and National Front, would draw the same conclusion. ...

And you wonder where all those intersectional feminists get their hatred of women from.

OP posts:
ArabellaScott · 07/04/2021 19:05

I love it when people come and tell us what feminists should think and feel.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:50

Sorry that post was addressed to mangoontoast

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:50

It does show a distinct lack of thought and ability to articulate an argument.

It really does.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:49

You can be pro-women's rights and pro-trans rights. The vast majority of non-mumsnetters are.

Yes. I am even a Mumsnetter and I am. I support both female only spaces for some things for the privacy, dignity, safety and emotional well-being of women and girls, and also the right for trans people to have legal protection from being discriminated against due to their identity.

Like the majority of people in the U.K. Who categorically aren't gender ideologists.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:49

So... single sex spaces are limited to toilets now?

How about we have some intelligent dialogue about what single sex spaces really encompass? Toilets are probably the least of them. But, the easiest target for those wanting to shame women discussing where the rights of another group conflict those set up to protect women and children.

It does show a distinct lack of thought and ability to articulate an argument.

yourhairiswinterfire · 07/04/2021 18:48

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here.

What 'anti-trans ideology'?

There's a thread today about women in prison in California being told by the prison guards to expect sexual violence, because prisoners from the male estate that self id as women are being moved to the female estate. The guards have said they'll need to set up a maternity facility and get inmates on nanny duty to cope with the babies being born as a result of this.

What kind of 'feminist' accepts that rape/sexual assault of women locked in women's prison is just inevitable? What kind of 'feminist' is cool with that? Anyone that thinks that's fine is no friend of women. Prison guards telling female inmates to expect to be raped or sexually assaulted should send ANY woman's blood cold, whether they're a feminist or not.

Female prisoners in the UK have been raped/sexually assault by transfers from the male estate, too. One of them has recently taken the MoJ to court.

Is that what ''anti-trans'' means, wanting women to be protected whilst they're locked? Wanting them to not be raped? Is that seriously asking too much?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 07/04/2021 18:44

Think the person obsessed with toilets is you?

mangoontoast · 07/04/2021 18:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Helleofabore · 07/04/2021 18:41

The vast majority of feminists don't agree with the anti-trans ideology so prevalent here. The vast majority don't believe that trans rights are the biggest threat to women's rights.

I think you’d be surprised....

And I think you’d be also surprised that even those professing to be supporting trans rights will have limits to their support.

But then, you must have some evidence behind what you say.

So, please post it to show us that we are wrong.

Alex2112 · 07/04/2021 18:31

Madness to suggest that gender critical people are fascists ...

People who stand up for women's rights to female only spaces, and women's sports are standing up for simple freedoms.
That is not fascism.

It is actually perverse to undermine women's rights. Sadly LBGT community is now getting obsessed with what they perceive as "trans" rights, who, in effect have the same rights as us all. Human rights.

The fact that people try to suggest women, or anyone, who protects western culture, that includes respecting women's rights is just daft... liberal leftie nonsense.

Soros is laughing at the west as he is winning