Dr Debbie Hayton interview

Debbie will also know, and understand well, the power of the trans lobby to enforce compliance,

You mean like getting unions such as the NASUWT to support men's rights to use women's spaces? The trans lobby that helped override the rights of female teachers and students for the paraphilic desires of men?

Haven't you been reading this thread? Women have repeatedly asked Hayton about those guidelines and Hayton has not engaged.

Instead Hayton has taken the opportunity to talk about their own sexuality.

Remind me again why women are supporting Hayton in this?

I have zero interest in why Hayton decided he was a woman and wrote those guidelines.

I would be more impressed if he worked to replace them with support for women's rights.

AGP is not a sexuality and those who say it is,do so in order to minimise the effects on women and piggyback on LGB rights.

Blanchard who discovered/ theorised it says it is best understood as a sexual orientation.

Perhaps Debbie has been able to individuate (in the Jungian integration of the conscious and unconscious self sense) and Robin is at an earlier stage on her journey towards wholeness and self awareness. Perhaps with hindsight it would have been possible without transition, but from the description of dysphoria it sound like it is rather all consuming and not conducive to psychological integration

Yes, i think we all have the tendency to first project ourselves and our issues onto the material world, and try to live them or resolve them that way. Of course, this never works for long because the struggle is an internal one, and it is only on this level that it can can really be resolved.

Essentially isn’t it then a sexual orientation that can never be consummated? How do you deal with that

Many people have strong drives, sexual urges and orientations which will never be consummated. A drive thwarted in this way will eventually be sublimated via another pursuit or different channel of expression.

And once it is "understood for what it is", what then? Can it be treated or cured? Because it doesn't sound like a healthy way to live

It sounds as if this is something that the person is going to have to live with pretty much for life, or until the orientation shifts or fades of its own accord.

Grayson Perry talks very revealingly and honestly about this in his memoir. Although, of course, Grayson Perry, has never made the leap into suggesting he is a woman.

I do think that some of the lines of questioning to Debbie are harsh. I think what they are doing, and admitting so publicly, is brave and with major implication for them in their life. Debbie will also know, and understand well, the power of the trans lobby to enforce compliance, not only in their intimate personal life, but in their public and professional life too.

Debbie's is an important voice in pushing back against this, and I wouldn't want to completely alienate them.

AGP is a paraphillia, not a sexual orientation.
A common definition used worldwide from the DSM-IV:
“recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors generally involving i) non-human objects, ii) the suffering or humiliation of oneself or one’s partner, or iii) children or other non-consenting persons that occur over a period of at least 6 months”

There are a growing number of groups of (mostly) heterosexual men attempting to claim various paraphillic behaviours as sexual orientations and/or identities requiring protection. Such attempted minimisation is a serious Safeguarding and Child Protection issue.

"A woman only at weekends" . I wish. I was raped on a Wednesday.

I don’t care what deeper meaning any teachers’ sexual proclivities hold for them. THEY SHOULD NOT INFORM SCHOOL GUIDANCES.

Absolutely. And it’s completely irresponsible to make this anything other than a blanket rule - regardless of whether or not the owner of said proclivity considers it harmless. This must surely be basic safeguarding and it’s pretty shocking that the NASUWT guidelines say otherwise.

I don’t care what deeper meaning any teachers’ sexual proclivities hold for them. THEY SHOULD NOT INFORM SCHOOL GUIDANCES.

Sexuality is more than just the ‘sexual’

AGP is not a sexuality and those who say it is,do so in order to minimise the effects on women and piggyback on LGB rights.

I doubt many here are both qualified or motivated to help a man with autogynephilia or indeed to "advancing arguments" (whatever that means).

Many do, however, understand the safeguarding implications of the policies he helped create and know he is in a unique position to change them, if he wished.

your motivation is sexual,

A rather base and inadequate understanding. Sexuality is more than just the ‘sexual’.

rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

It’s an important topic that needs more understanding and discussion. Hardly out of place on this forum where these issues are discussed a lot.

Thank you Debbie.
Yes behaviours can hold less (or a bit less) power over a person if they can understand where they’re coming from.

I guess transition has allowed you to heal underneath a cocoon. But we’ll never know if you could have achieved this without transition. It’s like transition is the treatment that allows you to realise that transition isn’t required. Another impossible problem.

Thank you for engaging.

DebbieInBirmingham
Given you now acknowledge that your motivation is sexual, rather than "advancing arguments and debating ideas" here, wouldn't it be imperative to work to remove the guidance you informed?

Perhaps Debbie has been able to individuate (in the Jungian integration of the conscious and unconscious self sense) and Robin is at an earlier stage on her journey towards wholeness and self awareness. Perhaps with hindsight it would have been possible without transition, but from the description of dysphoria it sound like it is rather all consuming and not conducive to psychological integration.

And what does this condition assume womanhood to be?

A cissified, patriarchal stereotype of femininity, judging by the testimony of trans widows forced into participating.

This is where we so often have a problem, because womanhood is typically construed by the person with the condition as something quite reductive and often sexualised. Of course women object to a harmful interpretation of womanhood.

Harry Benjamin recommended changing the body because you cannot change the mind. However, from the testimony of people like White (who has posted in this thread, I notice), changing the body doesn't appear to bring much in the way of peace and security. White seems annoyed with me for simply advancing arguments and debating ideas.

Ideally we wouldn't change either mind or body. Instead we should try and reconcile them. But that's hard. Especially after half a lifetime of denial.

If I had known in 2012 what I know now I would never have transitioned. It did bring immediate palliative relief, but it was a poor solution.

It only worked because I was convinced that I was some sort of woman. But it was nonsense. It took me several years to realise that. Only after dismantling those ideas have I been secure in myself.

That would be the TT 'guidance' with four invented 'case studies' all of which end in detransition

RobinMoiraWhite

Recent research published of a long term follow up study of 139 transgender boys finds that 87% desisted. This is congruent with most other studies that find a large majority will desist during the course of puberty. These case studies, if they end in desistance, are entirely representative.

Sorry DebbieInBirmingham I meant to ask my question a bit more sensitively than that came across.

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone: "What makes a man want to be a woman which isn't either about sexist 'gender roles' or about a fetish?"

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.[/quote]
And once it is "understood for what it is", what then? Can it be treated or cured? Because it doesn't sound like a healthy way to live.

One thing is certain though. The solution isn't to try to convince the rest of the world that that person is a woman. You say you have accepted this about yourself, but there are a lot of others out there who haven't, and at the moment the aim seems to be to convince the world that TWAW, including TW who have the same condition as you (whether they admit it or not).

[quote DebbieInBirmingham]@oldcrone "Perhaps Debbie or Robin could tell us what they think makes a man into a woman which isn't either about a sexist 'gender role' or about a fetish."

It's more fundamental than that: men can't become women. As I told Triggernometry, transwomen are [still] men.

The key questions for me are:

1. Should adults be able to modify their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?
2. Should we be restricted by sexist dress codes?[/quote]

1. Should society accept people modifying their bodies in order to feel more comfortable with them?

1. Should that person acquire the right to use single sex provisions for the opposite sex even though that will make many women uncomfortable?

Do you think Rachel Dolezal should have been able to modify her body in order to feel more comfortable with it and have that accepted by society

An inwardly directed sexual orientation. Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

Does that relieve the distress?

If the AGP accepts that their erotic target, the woman they thought they were, isn’t really a woman, but a man who likes to think of himself as a woman, then doesn’t that destroy that primary erotic target?

Essentially isn’t it then a sexual orientation that can never be consummated? How do you deal with that?

Causes psychological distress until it is understood for what it is.

And what is it?