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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

"They can request another space"

89 replies

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 15:14

Still reeling after an inset day talk on Diversity and Inclusion. The group delivering the 2.5 hour long class showed us a video of a trans girl, primary age, happily playing with friends and their parents saying how wonderful it all was.

This very feminine looking transgirl has, in my Headteacher's mind, become the poster child who represents all children who are transitioning and he has now proclaimed a push for all trans pupils to be allowed to toilet, change, swim, play with wherever they are comfortable.

Before now, our teenage trans pupils have been offered an individual changing area/toilet cubicle for their modesty and dignity. It's worked. We don't have trans girls...yet.

I run residential trips tied to my subject area and asked about the sleeping arrangements, should the situation arise. The Headteacher now feels that a transgirl should be able to share dormitories and changing areas with girls and trans is to share with the boys.

I pointed out that our pupils with strong religious faiths will not be able to/wouldn't want to; also that the vulnerable girls with haunted pasts won't want to; I pointed out that, bottom line, we have sex segregation for a very good reason and the very basic right of dignity and privacy should be respected. I asked him how that will be navigated and he replied that if a girl objects, then she can sleep/be catered for elsewhere.

It's gutted me. Girls, move out if you don't like it.

I pointed out that Sex is a protected characteristic and he shrugged and said that we have to evolve with how society is changing.

I asked him how his daughter would feel about his desire to throw her rights to privacy away, and he told me she'd be fine with it.

He's seen had heated the story of the little transgirl and he is utterly captured.

I know my card is now marked and am wondering how I'll be treated upon my return.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 18:16

The group delivering the 2.5 hour long class showed us a video of a trans girl, primary age, happily playing with friends and their parents saying how wonderful it all was.

This very feminine looking transgirl has, in my Headteacher's mind, become the poster child who represents all children who are transitioning and he has now proclaimed a push for all trans pupils to be allowed to toilet, change, swim, play with wherever they are comfortable.

Aside from the Safeguarding issues this might also usefully prompt a wider discussion about sexism in schools. Why shouldn't boys play with girls, what can the school do to break down sexist stereotypes etc?
Would feminine boys who do not like football etc be bullied if they wanted to play with girls during break and conversely in what way are girls in the school pressured to conform to sexist stereotypes of presentation or play?

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 18:15

All of your advice and references are so vital to me. Thank you. I've felt on shaky ground ever since this conversation took place and while I have colleagues who know how pupil-centred and caring I am, we also have a woke-crew in favour of pronoun announcing on emails etc.

Thank you all.

OP posts:
ahagwearsapointybonnet · 04/04/2021 18:09

You could also ask whether insurers would cover payouts/how they would view it if a girl was sexually assaulted or filmed while changing for PE, or sharing sleeping accommodation on a trip - or worst case, became pregnant, as a PP said.

And you could point out that 80%-plus of children diagnosed with gender dysphoria eventually desist and become comfortable with their sex (if not put on blockers first) - so what happens when Adam decides he is Anna, shares the changing rooms with the girls for two years, then decides actually he was really Adam all along?

And point out that it won't necessarily be the sweet, quiet, arty, feminine boy he might be thinking of who comes out as a transgirl - it could just as easily be the massive, muscly bullying one who the girls are already afraid of, and any policies the school makes on this would need to be applicable to both....

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 18:03

At the moment, over the last 2 years, we have had about 7 transboys. I know 3 of these have shown autistic tendencies and 2 others were in care - SA in their histories and have changed their minds about transitioning since.

There's a useful article by the Guardian from 2018 which recognises these issues.

'Schools pulled into row over helping transgender children
As more teens come out as trans, experts clash over how schools should help'
(extract)
[Stephanie] Davies-Arai says her broader concern is that by affirming students’ gender identity, schools may be nudging them down a route that can lead to cross-sex hormones and life-changing surgery without enough time to reflect. Teachers, she says, “are essentially being forced to collude in an experimental approach towards children with gender dysphoria”. She adds: “You can support children and accept them, without affirming their belief that their body is ‘wrong’.”

Adele Robinson (not her real name), a head of year at a secondary school, shares Davies-Arai’s worries. The school has had 12 children, all girls, come out as transgender in the past 18 months. The majority, she says, have autism, and some have experienced sexual abuse.

When they come out, she says, they have brought in information sourced from Tumblr blogs and YouTube videos. Although her team does its best to “support every child in a loving, kind and compassionate way”, she feels that staff are too frightened to challenge what she sees as harmful practices: “We have chest binders worn in school, which is horrible. If a child was cutting, they would be straight in with a counsellor. Yet damaging developing breast tissue goes unquestioned. It’s a gross failure in terms of child protection.”

[Susie] Green disagrees, and argues for a biological underpinning to transgender identity: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.” (continues)
www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:57

@AlwaysTawnyOwl

The issue with girls of minority faiths is an important one. He will have to provide alternative accommodation or be discriminating against them. Are there many in the school? Has he told all parents of girls the situation?

As no under 18 will have a GRC and schools by law have to provide single sex accommodation I think he will also be in breach of the law.

Thank you Tawny. This is what I need to hear.

Actually, it seems incredible that unisex toilets are allowed - just musing about the number of new builds with unisex toilets instead of sex segregated toilets.

OP posts:
BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:56

@R0wantrees

As you know, ultimately the school governors (rather than the Head) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.
Absolutely. This is important to remember.
OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 17:55

I can predict their reactions : "that's an extreme example", "that's hardly likely to happen here", "we're talking about innocent children, not adults".

Safeguarding and Child Protection policies are required to consider such risks, however unlikely, and mitigate against them.

As well as the potential safety issues, girls privacy and dignity is compromised when male peers have access to toilets, changing rooms or sleeping areas.

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 04/04/2021 17:55

And given the recent revelations about sexual harrassment of girls in schools how is allowing a boy to share spaces where girls undress improving things? What is the difference between a transgirl and a boy?

Ritasueandbobtoo9 · 04/04/2021 17:54

BlackAlys

Kirsty Williams needs to understand that we don’t want this. We need them to understand. Happy to write as well. Let us Welsh women unite.

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:52

@Mif4

Ffs what's happening to our children?

What happened to teaching them to love their bodies and that they are all wonderful and individual for a reason.

How many trans kids are in the school?

I just still can't get my head around this.
I don't understand why it's even a topic for discussion whilst they are children and go to school to learn. Why are they sexualising bloody everything?
I'm so fucking sad at the world we live in that women and girls are just underclass citizens now.

Yes, 100%

At the moment, over the last 2 years, we have had about 7 transboys. I know 3 of these have shown autistic tendencies and 2 others were in care - SA in their histories and have changed their minds about transitioning since.

I can see how easy it is for me to be labelled as a bigot or transphobic because without due diligence and critical thought, I am opposing what society is evolving to - that's how many staff and my SLT will see me.

OP posts:
AlwaysTawnyOwl · 04/04/2021 17:50

The issue with girls of minority faiths is an important one. He will have to provide alternative accommodation or be discriminating against them. Are there many in the school? Has he told all parents of girls the situation?

As no under 18 will have a GRC and schools by law have to provide single sex accommodation I think he will also be in breach of the law.

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 17:46

As you know, ultimately the school governors (rather than the Head) have responsibility for the welfare of all the children and staff in a school.

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:46

[quote Gassylady]@BlackAlys I would go with the nuclear option. Discuss P Bunce with them and how they were recognised for an award even though they only present as a woman for part of the time. Ask how he feels about that degree of inclusivity. If he feels that is ok I’d follow him into the gents toilets as I would be identifying as BlackOsian today Grin[/quote]
Well, there are enough staff to probably give that a go. Many of us feel the same.

I can predict their reactions : "that's an extreme example", "that's hardly likely to happen here", "we're talking about innocent children, not adults". - FFS, it's almost as if they cannot join the dots.

OP posts:
BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:44

[quote R0wantrees]Useful article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:
(extract)
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/[/quote]
Roman, that's incredibly helpful. Thank you.

OP posts:
Mif4 · 04/04/2021 17:43

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Gassylady · 04/04/2021 17:41

@BlackAlys I would go with the nuclear option. Discuss P Bunce with them and how they were recognised for an award even though they only present as a woman for part of the time. Ask how he feels about that degree of inclusivity. If he feels that is ok I’d follow him into the gents toilets as I would be identifying as BlackOsian today Grin

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:29

We're in Wales. I'll have to check what Kirsty Williams has to say. With all politicians, I'm really
Not feeling very hopeful here.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 17:23

I don't want to cast the Head in too bad light - he's young and enthusiastic and I can utterly see how the plight of this young transgirl has captured him (and that's without me even mentioning the medicalisation for life and the risks that bring) but his knee jerk reaction to be 'inclusive' irrespective of all the other information that's out there, alarms me

It should be alarming to anyone who works with children and your alarm bells are sound. Those in senior leadership roles have to be able to rationally consider the Safeguarding implications first and foremost in any situation.

ErrolTheDragon · 04/04/2021 17:21

his knee jerk reaction to be 'inclusive'

Hopefully at some point he'll realise he's not being inclusive to all the girls. That he's risking being horribly unkind to some of them.

Zeev · 04/04/2021 17:20

@Zinco

It's gutted me. Girls, move out if you don't like it.

But then if they all decided to, they would have their own space exclusively for the female sex. Now that may not happen in practice... let's say that half of them did, then you end up with girls section and a "real girls" section. I wonder how long it takes before the trans girls start demanding to be let in to the real girls section?

I remember a reddit thread about exactly this. It was not in a GenderCritical group but something to do with law. A trans woman first wanted advice on how to get access to the women's dressing room. They were given advice and later reported their success in gaining access.

A couple of months after that there was a new post. The same trans woman wanted to know if there was anything in the law to compel the females to use the women's dressing room. The female women had all started going somewhere else...

R0wantrees · 04/04/2021 17:18

Useful article by ExcelPope (a school governor) identifying how Safeguarding should work:
(extract)
"I spend a lot of time designing policies and procedures, and what I tell people is this:- Imagine a worst-case scenario occurs. There is an official investigation, where you’re asked “What did you do to prevent this happening?”. Now imagine what answer you’d like to be able to give to that question in that scenario – that’s the starting point for writing your policies.

In that vein, here’s a scenario.

You are the head-teacher of a secondary school, with pupils aged 11-18. A police officer arrives at the school and asks to speak to you. They have found a video on a porn site which shows the changing-rooms at your school, including a number of girls, who appear to be aged 13-15, in various states of undress. It has clearly been filmed with a concealed camera-phone.

The video has been taken down, but not before it had tens of thousands of views. The account that posted it has been traced to a student at the school who identifies themselves as trans and was, in accordance with the guidance, allowed to use the female changing rooms.

The police need a female member of staff to view the video with them, to identify the 20 or 30 teenage girls who appear in it, so that they and their parents can be informed that they have been victims of voyeurism.

What did you do to prevent this happening?" (continues)

There are around 2.2 million males aged 13-18 in the UK, no matter how much experience you have with children, with trans people, with trans-children, you cannot absolutely assert that none of them will abuse, or attempt to abuse, the guidance given in a manner that infringes of the rights of other students.

This isn’t about demonising all trans people, or suggesting that any given one of them would act in such a manner. This is about the risk presented by the guidance itself, whether that risk can be mitigated in a manner which is proportional to the potential seriousness of the outcome and whether the risk is, in part or in whole, outweighed by the risks of not implementing the guidance." (continues)

excelpope.wordpress.com/2019/02/28/the-unaskable-question/

BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:17
Thank you for that @RabbitOfCaerbannog
OP posts:
BlackAlys · 04/04/2021 17:15

@R0wantrees

This very feminine looking transgirl has, in my Headteacher's mind, become the poster child who represents all children who are transitioning and he has now proclaimed a push for all trans pupils to be allowed to toilet, change, swim, play with wherever they are comfortable... he is utterly captured

I would be concerned by a male colleague if they demonstrated such an apparent emotion-led response to a particular child especially if he then waved away the specific responsibilities he has to Safeguard all children his care.

I don't want to cast the Head in too bad light - he's young and enthusiastic and I can utterly see how the plight of this young transgirl has captured him (and that's without me even mentioning the medicalisation for life and the risks that bring) but his knee jerk reaction to be 'inclusive' irrespective of all the other information that's out there, alarms me.

He's stoic and a total grafter, but the ease of his 'capture' is so disappointing. He really, really isn't seeing the bigger, more realistic picture here. He isn't stopping to consider anything else.

OP posts:
NeedToKnow101 · 04/04/2021 17:04

Keep at it OP. You know you are right. Just show the law, the evidence and your fact-based argument.

WarriorN · 04/04/2021 16:59

Ofsted, and as outlined in SSAUK.

Point out to him that a trans girl could get an actual girl pregnant and would he like to deal with the parents and their law suit in that situation?

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