Gender Criticals vandalise LGBT centre and deface memorial to trans woman.

Thank you for the background . Sounds a bit like Scotland , where
Government makes no effort to support female politicians receiving abuse from people who purport to be trans allies.

The two events were weeks apart as the latest information on further damage to feminists murals. Agree with what has been said about not nice to damage memorials, or to accuse without evidence.

Graffiti is a very common protest form in Spain. The messages are not insults or threats which is more civilised than in other occasions.

I haven’t read the full thread, so apologies if this might have been said already: Cogam (the association whose walls were written on) has an annual ladrillo (brick) award for transphobia and last year it was given to a prominent Spanish feminist Lucía Etxebarria who is a serious critic of the white paper to introduce the known as Montero’s trans law. Montero is the minister for equality (now changed to equalities to keep in line with other things that trend dictates are in a spectrum)) That draft bill was broken down by Etxebarria highlighting what is often discussed in this board. The regressiveness of gender and the clash of trans wants with women’s rights. She was doxed, received threats to herself and her children, etc. Montero present at the award event applauded when the announcement was made with a digital brick thrown to the digital picture of Lucía Etxebarria. If that’s not incitement to violence, it’s very close.
Montero has refused to meet with feminists groups that question the law she sponsors and last month a letter criticising her clear bias was published from feminists within her own party. She has also refused to define what’s a woman.

I thought this information can also aid to explain, not justify, why if GC people wrote that graffiti they have chosen that location.

Well, well, well. How the turntables...

Feminist mural in Madrid vandalised on International Women’s Day. The faces of the 15 women depicted in the mural were covered with black spray paint.

Now that really is vandalism, because it could have destroyed the mural. Interesting that this was the third act of vandalism registered in just a few hours -- the feminist mural, the transwoman memorial and a feminist mural in the nearby city of Alcalá de Henares was damaged after being inaugurated just two days earlier.

Now it sounds likely that the transwoman's memorial was graffitied by the same people who damaged two feminist murals. They left a note describing feminism as “one of the bêtes noires of our era.”

The same misogynists could well object to the Montero law, not (obviously) because it undermines women's rights but because they genuinely are transphobic.

So Shizuku, do you want to change the title of this thread, as there's even less evidence that the memorial was attacked by feminists?

Er, I could learn how to spell. Thanks Zinco!

Thanks, Zinko. I always learn something from reading Mumsnet threads! especially on FWR.

Interestingly this article in the Spanish newspaper El Pais links the graffiti on Cristina Ortiz’s memorial with two other acts of vandalism of feminist murals/memorials for International Women’s Day, most likely carried out by supporters of the far right party, Vox:

“Feminist mural in Madrid vandalized on International Women’s Day

The faces of the 15 women depicted in the mural were covered with black spray paint. The perpetrators, who called themselves Revolutio, left a note describing feminism as “one of the bêtes noires of our era.”
...
This was the third act of vandalism registered in just a few hours: on Sunday, another feminist mural in the nearby city of Alcalá de Henares was damaged after being inaugurated just two days earlier. Mayor Javier Rodríguez Palacios, of the PSOE, called the attack “an assault against all of society.” A plaque honoring trans icon Cristina Ortiz, known as La Veneno, in the Parque del Oeste in Madrid, was also spray-painted with a message against the government’s draft law on trans rights.”

english.elpais.com/society/2021-03-08/feminist-mural-in-madrid-vandalized-on-international-womens-day.html

Sounds like a fair whack of cultural imperialism to me - I've lived in Spain, political graffiti was par for the course, although my favourite was the cars with the speakers on the roof going round spouting out fairly incomprehensible propaganda about a local election/some other political issue/sometimes football

I was also surprised when visiting Spain and Portugal about the amount of political graffiti in all sorts of places, including ones that seemed inappropriate to me.

I use these slogans all the time..not threatening to anyone , but bloody angry about what is happening in Spain , in the Uk and more or less everywhere else. Spanish feminists really don’t want self identity laws to be introduced, and Madrid is the centre for much of the protests. And yes I think it’s likely that lesbians really don’t want what might have been a good place for them to be turned into yet another mixed space with no room for lesbians. I think it is ok to express these emotions in a protest and the suffragettes did way more vandalism, acid on cricket pitches, fires in post boxes etc. We are not going to submit to the ideology that denies biology and women our sex protected rights. a bit of graffiti is really not such a big deal.

Shizuku: "This thread is a masterclass in whataboutery."

Let me quote Wikipedia's definition:

"Whataboutism, also known as whataboutery, is a variant of the tu quoque logical fallacy that attempts to discredit an opponent's position by charging them with hypocrisy without directly refuting or disproving their argument."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism

First thing I would note, is that you didn't actually give an argument in the opening post. I don't see that anyone "failed to refute" your argument, or tried to "divert from" your argument, when you didn't actually give an argument in the first place!

Can you identify the fallacy here when you didn't give a real argument to start with?

Rather, I think people were left to guess about your intentions; and they guessed you were using this story to bash on the GC ideological position or movement. But then in that context, where is the fallacy in pointing out the behaviour of the other side?

If there was a widespread violence problem in the GC movement, then sure, pointing out the behaviour of the other side (even if equally bad or worse) would be a diversion in a way.

But I don't see a problem in pointing out that this is a rare incident on the GC side, condemning the rare incident, and also pointing out the worse behaviour of the other side. That seems reasonable in a context where we are left to guess about your exact intentions, but that they are presumably hostile.

Not all use of "tu quoque" amounts to a fallacy. It depends on the context. If you're trying to discredit the GC position just because someone did something bad in its name, then "tu quoque" is a fair response here.

Vandalism of a memorial is not on. So glad it came off so easily ... must have been very quick off the mark there, eh!

I am glad OP is against violence. I hope OP spends a great deal of time reprimanding the many people who threaten and abuse trans people who are vocal about knowing they cannot change sex, and are very clear that they are the sex they were born still and don’t try the semantic tricks of stating they were always the opposite sex or conveniently stating that if they ar women, they must surely be female too.

And at the same time, reprimand those prominent activists who when they are heavily involved in sexually harassing women on twitter earlier this years and mocking female toilet habits and toilet noises. Wasn’t that on international women’s day just been? Mmm! Those are just the things they have done so far in 2021.

Oh. No. That’s right. OP keeps linking that prominent activist up as support for their arguments across different threads.

We are constantly being told that gender is not sex and that trans people don't really believe that they physically change sex , so how on earth is " sex≠ gender threatening and or offensive.

You needing an explanation of why it's threatening is cis privilege. To any trans person, it's obvious.

I accept that some trans people might find it "threatening" in some sense; but it's still a case of fairly polite and completely reasonable political rhetoric.

If people find such mild rhetoric "threatening", then what are you supposed to do?

There is a difference between people finding something "threatening" and it being morally blameworthy speech. It's mild rhetoric that people have every right to use, regardless of whether it offends some people or they find it "threatening" in some limited sort of sense. You aren't automatically blameworthy for everyone's possible negative reaction to your speech.

(Note: I'm only defending the content of the rhetoric, and not if it's painted somewhere it shouldn't be.)

Proper hard!

[quote R0wantrees]The glass/perspex cover over the memorial plaque to Cristina Ortiz was sprayed and then successfully cleaned up a month ago.

twitter.com/EcosyTinta/status/1368272074972729349

Background:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Veneno[/quote]
So heartless. They could get tennis elbow.

I am happy to condemn vandalism and graffiti. To deface a memorial is incredibly bad behaviour. I hope they have CCTV so that the criminals can be punished according to Spanish law.

I don’t understand how we are certain that it really is GC women behind this? Or why all GC women suddenly are accused of associating with this?

Again, I condemn it.

I’m dangerous, aren’t I?

You need to log yourself with 101 immediately, Empress.

I’m dangerous, aren’t I?

Sorry please ignore my random post .

Graffitos politicoss en españa

And then there's crochet.......literal murder!

Sounds like a fair whack of cultural imperialism to me - I've lived in Spain, political graffiti was par for the course, although my favourite was the cars with the speakers on the roof going round spouting out fairly incomprehensible propaganda about a local election/some other political issue/sometimes football.

Just because something seems outstandingly rude/reprehensible in your country, doesn't mean people other countries feel the same way.

I'm just mulling the utter fear created by a sticker.....

Would it be terribly wicked of me to have an Easter Monday wander and gently leave a few in my wake?

Truly GC women are beyond the pale