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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Non binary

39 replies

Nellodee · 02/04/2021 21:20

I’ve been frustrated by non binary for a while. If non binary exists, then there wasn’t a binary to begin with.

Then I thought, this is because I was conflating gender and sex. It annoyed me that people were opting out of the binary, because I saw it as an assumption that everyone else opted in. However, if it relates to gender rather than sex, then I can’t really argue that gender is non binary. I agree with it.

More than that, I think women are non binary. Men are non binary. Transwomen are non binary. Transmen are non binary. Non binary is the only sensible description of gender.

Nobody is purely a female gender. Nobody is purely a male gender. The only sensible gender is non binary.

This means words like woman and man are useless to describe gender. You could be womanly or manly, but you could never fall entirely at either end of the spectrum. You can never be entirely a woman or a man on that spectrum, only somewhere in the non binary gender bread middle.

And if this is the case, and we are all, every one of us, gender non binary, and the words man and woman represent the extremes of this scale and don’t actually refer to any real people at all, then can we not just bloody use them to mean sex again?

I know this isn’t about logic, but have I made a logical flaw?

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 03/04/2021 03:26

Apparently the vast majority of people have a strongly held internal sense of gender.

I don't think this has ever been properly checked though.

I don't have one. Nor does DH.

NiceGerbil · 03/04/2021 03:24

Your difficulty here OP is that you're thinking about it logically.

How it works is.

Some people can choose their gender ID

And others get told

The binary is important for trans. From this to that. It's important that most people are 'binary' so that there are solid things to signal desired ID. Example. Piece by a trans goth bemoaning the fact that male goths wear makeup etc. Because it made it hard for them to express they were trans. So it's important that most people are 'binary' and don't mess up the rules.

Women over a certain age are cis. Especially if they are ??!! over the idea of people change sex on a feeling. And even if they are GNC etc. Doesn't matter. You're cis.

According to the logic. Most women on these boards are trans. But that fucks things up doesn't it. So no. Cis women...

FifteenToes · 03/04/2021 01:23

The only sensible gender is non binary.

Exactly.

I tend to use it when it's offered as a choice, although I'm not completely happy with it and would conceptualise it rather differently from you. For me it's not about being around the middle of a spectrum; it's about being skeptical of whether the spectrum itself, and the concept that it's supposed to be a spectrum OF, even exists in the first place.

A better option for me in questions about gender would be "none". Or even better, "I don't understand the question".

It dismays me though when I see people here being dismissive and patronising towards teenagers coming out as non binary. It seems to me a girl describing herself as non-binary is being far more philosophically honest and coherent, and more in line with feminist values, than if she describes herself as having a female "gender".

Everybody being non-binary seems to me the closest thing, within current terminology, to what feminists have always fought for.

vimtosogood · 03/04/2021 00:35

It just exists so "cis" aka normal people who subscribe to the trans madness can be feel a little special too.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 03/04/2021 00:31

I have had some irl in depth conversations with several people now on opposite sides of the 'debate', not TRAs, just woke or wokish people close to me that I have known for years and so they can't just dismiss me as a hateful bigot. I have noticed some common themes. Non of them literally believe TWAW/TMAM beyond be kind, they all heartily agree with the statement 'gender is a social construct', but can't extrapolate that sentence to its logical conclusion. They all (when loosing the debate :) ) summarise by saying similar to 'but gendered expectations/sterotypes are so strong and ingrained that there is no hope of getting rid of them altogether, and being able to move between and opt out of solidified gender groups is a sort of compromise when getting rid of them is unrealistic.' It's so...short sighted.

AdHominemNonSequitur · 03/04/2021 00:07

There are no logical inconsistencies in your reasoning. Trans and non binary concepts of gender can't logically coexist. It is entirely founded on circular reasoning and wishful thinking with pathetic guerilla attacks made on sex by misinterpreting genetics and developmental biology.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 02/04/2021 23:14

Rose of Dawn had an interesting discussion: Non-binary is meaningless

RagzReturnsRebooted · 02/04/2021 23:10

Yep, DS told me his girlfriend was non binary and I said yes, so am I, if we're talking about gender. Sex, however, is binary.
I even did one of those 'which gender am I' quizzes and got something complicated I'd never heard of like gender fluid non binary or agender something. It was hard to answer the questions when you don't buy in to the gender idiology .

When I was studying psychology a level many years ago (I never finished it) we did something called the Androgeny Test (a quiz of 60 questions) which told us whether we had more feminine or masculine traits. I came out almost exactly androgynous. Some of the girls were more masculine and some of the boys more feminine but generally people matched their sex to a greater or lesser degree. Of course, those of us who got androgynous felt special lol.
I'll have to try to find it, I bet it would be quite controversial on here as it assigned traits to genders!

DS had never heard of androgynous when I used the term the other day. I had to explain it was a bit like non binary but it didn't make a fuss about it and require pronouns!

Mumofgirlswholiketoplaywithmud · 02/04/2021 22:52

I get what you mean OP. I don't feel feminine. I am in a STEM field. I think that I would be agender if anything.

My big issue however is that with non-binary it seems to come with mastectomies and breast binding for young women/ "non-binary AFAB people". Why is a flat chest seen as the "neutral"?

SuperSleepyBaby · 02/04/2021 22:45

I don’t know any binary people.

ArabellaScott · 02/04/2021 21:37

Yes, I agree, OP. Using the proper argument of genderism, as I understand it, everyone is non-binary.

Nellodee · 02/04/2021 21:30

I just think it’s a really good deflection of the whole twaw thing. If someone says twaw, then it’s perfectly reasonable to say, no, no one has a purely female gender, everyone is non binary. Twanb. So are women. So are men. So are transmen.

Of course, if you are referring to sex and not gender, then transwomen are men.

OP posts:
GNCQ · 02/04/2021 21:25

Nope no flaws there.
At the end of the day, if you opt into this non-binary business, you're either a female non-binary person or a male non-binary person.

EmpressWitchDoesntBurn · 02/04/2021 21:23

I don’t see any flaws. I would say that gender is essentially a sexist construct.

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