Is using TRA rude and dismissive (a bit like how the word T**F) is used?

I defer to you Arabella perhaps then I am mistaken in thinking it was invented by those who use it now as a slur.

That is when I first heard it.

T**F is a word invented by one group of people to describe another group of people.

The group who invented the term do not like the group for whom they invented it. In fact by using the word exclusionary they hoped to turn others against this group too.

People who believe in the importance of sex rather than gender did not invent the term T**F for themselves.

As others have said the term seems to have been used with varying degrees of threats since it was invented, it has never been in a neutral way by those who used it.

To claim it is a neutral adjective is disingenuous.

i think the term T**f was maybe even coined by radical feminists, way back when. But it has since been used as a slur so much and so violently that it is not a term that one can use in good faith.

Like very many words, it's the way its used that's key - plenty of words that were harmless descriptors become derogatory over time because they have been used specifically to dehumanise, degrade, debase people. Coupled with violent imagery, threats and so on (as evidenced on about a million tweets), they become trigger words and harmful.

This is what's happened with T**f, which is now used to target particularly women and very often the people using it are using it in a threatening and/or abusive manner.

Was there ever a time when the term T**F was considered neutral by those who use it to describe their opponents?

Was there ever a time when those who use it to describe their opponents thought that it was a perfectly valid position to want to keep laws, sports and safe spaces based on biology even if it differed from their own?

Because the first time I ever saw the term was on a badge which said T**F be gone with a picture of a spray bottle. That didn’t seem neutral to me.

I wouldn’t wear a badge with a similar phrase about anyone holding a different opinion to mine. It seems unnecessarily hostile and mocking and not at all conducive to peaceful coexistence. It also seems rather childish.

Queer is a great example. Amongst LGBT, its not a n insult but when spat out by a homophobe it is

There are plenty of gay people who reject the term 'Queer'.

what happened to groups

TRA appeared in response to Terf though it was , like Terf just a normally used word and descriptor until people started taking offence

TRA is an acronym for trans rights activist. TERF is an acronym for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist.

There are two issues with this term TERF:

Firstly, it puts the emphasis on exclusion - which is a value judgement based on an existing ideology ( transgender ideology). It fails to recognise that what Gender Critical feminism is is about doing away with repressive gender stereotypes. And feminism is about centring women and girls in your political view and action.

Secondly, not all people who are Gender Critical identify as feminists. I don't use that label myself; although I am woman/female centred in certain respects.

You say exclusion whereas women say privacy and protection of their own discrete reality and of the spaces, services and sports which have been hard won.

What happened for groups campaigning for their own services and provisions?

Derailed not detailed, thank you autocorrect.

I've never tried to use TRA as an insult, more like as a description for a particular 'strand' of the trans movement.

For instance, I would not put Rose of Dawn and Blair White in the same category as, say, Veronica Ivy (formerly Rachel McKinnon).

I used to frequent a board, many years ago, where there were a lot of debates about abortion (it was an American site). The moderators made it clear that the acceptable terms to use were 'pro-choice' and 'anti-abortion' as both sides were happy with those labels. The pro-choice side didn't like being called 'pro-abortion', because a lot of them felt that they weren't 'pro' abortion - they just wanted it to be legally available to women. The anti-abortion side didn't like the term 'anti-choice' because they felt that there were other choices available (in terms of contraception or adoption). By setting neutral language which both sides could accept in advance, the ideas could be debated without being detailed.

I am happy to use neutral terms in order to move the discussion forward.

However, I do like words to have clearly defined meanings

Since I learned about queer theory in my early 20s I always saw feminism as being not only about advancing women’s rights in formal terms (that battle being pretty much won in this country) but about challenging the gender binary and gender norms, and recognising how damaging they are to everyone, not just women. So I always saw respecting and supporting trans people as part of feminism, just like respecting and supporting anyone else who is gender non-confirming, regardless of how they identify

The best way to support gender non conformity is not to suggest that certain expressions or feelings are the sole preserve of one sex or the other, surely?

Can you really not see that what 'trans' is trying to achieve is tomake the person fit the gender expectations and stereotypes by altering the body or by insisting on cross sex pronouns etc?

TRA appeared in response to Terf though it was , like Terf just a normally used word and descriptor until people started taking offence. Once you take offence then it does become an insult because though words have meanings, its the intent in the use that determines whetehr its an insult. Queer is a great example. Amongst LGBT, its not a n insult but when spat out by a homophobe it is. In my experience, most people being called a TRA tend to think its a bit meh, an attempt at an insult but not much of one.

since I learned about queer theory in my early 20s I always saw feminism as being not only about advancing women’s rights in formal terms (that battle being pretty much won in this country) but about challenging the gender binary and gender norms, and recognising how damaging they are to everyone, not just women. So I always saw respecting and supporting trans people as part of feminism, just like respecting and supporting anyone else who is gender non-confirming, regardless of how they identify.

Would you mind explaining a bit more Helen?

I agree that gender norms are damaging but think that the key to getting rid of them would be people expressing themselves how they wish without that being anything to do their sex.

It is not challenging gender norms to say I like things traditionally associated with women therefore I have a woman brain. It is reinforcing them surely?

I agree with PPs who say that the word 'rights' in the phrase 'trans rights activist' is misleading because trans people do have a full complement of sex-based rights (including the right to obtain a gender recognition certificate). The problem is that many TWs want women's sex-based rights in addition to those to which their (male) sex entitles them.

I don't think any of these acronyms or shorthand phrases are comprehensible to people new to the debate. In those situations I talk about 'people who believe you can change sex' and 'people who believe in sex stereotypes'.

I am not a big fan of all the labels, even say GC, but I end up using them sometimes for brevity. My main objection to terf is the association with threats, plus it makes no sense, not many that get called it are radical feminists for a start.

I have never seen TRA associated with threats in the same way. However is there was ever a situation where someone asked me not to use it, I would respect that.

I really dislike terms like Brexiterr or Remoaner. Not helpful or constructive. I suppose it depends if you want to express your feelings or aim for a productive discussion.

Isn't it OK to be rude and dismissive in political debate? Talking about Brexiteers and Remoaners, for instance, isn't polite but it isn't hate speech.

I have often referred to TRAs as "transgenderism ideology supporters" or "gender identity supporters".

Trans rights activist" makes it clearer that its the cause that's the issue, not the person

Good point!

The issue is that' trans rights' itself is a shorthand term for everything that accompanies, and follows on from, Transgender ideology. Trans rights are not the exact same thing as Universal Human Rights, or even ideas around 'Equality'.

I prefer "trans rights activists" to "trans activist". The latter could describe a trans person who is an activist for any cause. "Trans rights activist" makes it clearer that its the cause that's the issue, not the person.

getting them to accept that, though

Maybe critics of transgender ideology may be the most accurate term. It is inclusive of everyone, no matter how they identify themselves ( if they are are critical of transgender ideology).

The thing tough, is that many people are committed to protecting women's spaces, services and sports, and maintaining single sex provisions where appropriate and required.

For those that embrace transgenderism and 'trans rights' this, in itself, is seen as exclusionary.

The irreconcilable nature of this disagreement is due to the quite profound differences in perception and outlook, so I'm not sure how terms can be created which embrace both?

Gender Critical & Gender Embracing/Conforming, maybe?

Good luck with trying to get many trans rights activists and trans allies from accepting that, though.

I see your point op. I think I might try using 'opponents of sex based rights' instead. It's a bit cumbersome and doesn't lend itself to an acronym but maybe that's no bad thing.

I disagree with the trans exclusionary position but at least feel there is a position in some cases. When people throw around TRA and other terms, I just think that person has given up on rational thought and is regressing to a fight/flight or 'us vs them' mentality

The reason you disagree with the 'trans exclusionary' position, as you put it, is because you accept and embrace the concept of transgenderism and all it implies. You accept its first base proposals.

I find I lack respect for anyone who claims that 'TERF is a slur' while at the same time dehumanizing trans woman is TIMs (trans identified males) or anyone who supports trans rights as TRAs

They are simply acronyms. It is far too long winded to write everything full hand all of the time. The most important thing is to use the acronyms correctly and when applicable. As suggested above, not everyone who is critical of gender constructs identifies as a feminist. so GC would be more accurate generally (gender critical).

TERF puts the emphasis on exclusion, rather than on rejection of an ideology or of a set of social constructs which is what GC feminism is actually doing. Gender criticism questions the whole ideology upon which transgender is founded.

Part of the negative rhetoric creating divides in society today is by reducing those with opposing views in some way or another. Using terms like Terf and TRA is dehumanizing, reductive and often inaccurate

I agree. And if trans rights activists are too quick to throw out the word "Terf" there are posters on here who are just as quick to throw out TRA or MRA with no justification.