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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is using TRA rude and dismissive (a bit like how the word T**F) is used?

142 replies

dyslek · 02/04/2021 17:55

I was wondering if using the term TRA to describe people is unhelpful. Does it entrench the idea that there are only two positions, and that we are not nuanced?
Obviously its not the most important point in this debate but it just struck me that maybe its not helpful and plays in to their hands.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 03:21

'To me, in terms of attraction to others, the ‘trappings’ are a big part of it I think - I’m attracted to a person as a whole package and that includes their cloths, hair, make-up (or lack thereof), voice, the way they move. And part of the reason I find the emphasis on the importance of biological sex in the context of sexual attraction hard to understand is that I’ve always found people being non-gender-conforming incredibly attractive, and there have definitely been people I’ve massively fancied who I wasn’t initially sure (ie when I first fancied them) if they were ‘biologically’ male or female. I know this isn’t probably how the majority of people feel, but I don’t think I’m anywhere near alone in this.'

And that's all about personal taste isn't it.

The trappings have never been important really to me. I'm not interested in show. I like tbh. Handsome men who are tall and have an edge of non conformity. A brain. Who are interesting. But the tall handsome bit is important and you can't have those qualities if you don't, iyswim.

I don't really care what clothes/ shoes/ hair they have. Goth/ boring suit/ whatever.

Men are taught to find women who are presented in a certain way attractive.

Women are taught that they should look past the physical (haha).

And all of this is very specific to our culture, at this point in time. It's superficial.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 03:13

Yes I think that was the person- Courtney/ Shane. I might Google and check the clip may be available (late and not going to search!) but yes it was really interesting how the blokes reacted. Really deeply uncomfy.

With women in society being much more sexualised, I think maybe those 'cues' embed more? And pretty much everything is for the het male gaze and it's so ubiquitous they don't realise. When I was commuting into London I used to look around and think. What if all these images of women were replaced with ones of men. Not David Beckham or the diet Coke thing. But men who are photographed like women. Passive, mainly. Like in some of the stuff for gay men (I found a pretty hard core magazine on the tube on the way home after a night out in the 90s... I had never seen pics of men looking... Dunno. Coy? Submissive? Flirty... Looking demurely up at the camera while toying with underwear type thing).

Anyway. What if all the images of women were replaced with ones of men not looking powerful but vulnerable etc. I know for a fact it would feel like the pics were everywhere and most men would feel really very uncomfortable.

Meanwhile, as a het woman. Most men wear boring clothes. Suits shirts jeans. Not much flesh on show. Not clingy. Why? Because the most important thing about them is not their body. Or so we're told. It's their personality, how funny they are. How rich they are (FFS). So the presentation is not important really. Clean, smart, job done.

(Not my type but anyway).

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:51

Sorry, I realise this is all a bit of a diversion, but perhaps allowable on the basis that - setting terms like ‘TRA’ and ‘t**f’ aside - it shows people on opposite sides of this debate can have a polite and interesting discussion.....

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:49

On the visual cues to sex thing. I always talk about this because it was really eye opening for me.

Big brother a few years ago had a guy who was a drag queen. He didn't put on his drag stuff for a few weeks though- so they all got to know him pretty well.

Then he said I'm going to get my gear on and went off and got in his dress, very high heels, something to replicate boobs pushed up, long varnished nails, long blonde 'big' hair, full makeup.

He was a good looking young man and when he came out all legs and hair and heels and eyelashes everyone said wow.

Then the interesting bit. The men in the house who had got to know him were really uncomfortable. What they said etc- all friendly. Made it clear that the 'sexy lady' attire etc was telling them one thing but they knew it was a man. It was confusing and unsettling for them. They didn't like it

Was that the series with Courtney Act/Shane Jenek? If so, i found that fascinating too, particularly as (as far as I remember) the whole series was based around a gender focus. I really rate Courtney/Shane generally, I think s/he talks a lot of sense. Although now I think about it you may be talking about a different series as I thought Courtney wore drag from the outset. Anyway, the thing I found fascinating was how conflicted one of the guys in particular seemed to be (a rather blokey bloke off love island I think) - they got on really well as friends, and when Shane was being Courtney the other guy basically admitted once or twice (while drunk) that he was pretty attracted to her, but it clearly really confused him.

And it made me think. With society as it is, and lots of men seeing women they don't know, too often as 2D 'types'. (MILF, old dear, sexy lady, jailbait, ballbreaker etc). Are the trappings much more to them? Do they find it difficult to see a person? Are they even looking?

And so I think maybe there's a big gap in this between men and women which might go some way to explaining why for transwomen the clothes/ makeup etc are important as they clearly signal woman (even if they don't personally want to dress that way) but women are saying ??? of course we can tell who is male and female.

It’s an interesting line of thought, though on my own personal experience I’m not sure I agree. To me, in terms of attraction to others, the ‘trappings’ are a big part of it I think - I’m attracted to a person as a whole package and that includes their cloths, hair, make-up (or lack thereof), voice, the way they move. And part of the reason I find the emphasis on the importance of biological sex in the context of sexual attraction hard to understand is that I’ve always found people being non-gender-conforming incredibly attractive, and there have definitely been people I’ve massively fancied who I wasn’t initially sure (ie when I first fancied them) if they were ‘biologically’ male or female. I know this isn’t probably how the majority of people feel, but I don’t think I’m anywhere near alone in this.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 02:29

I'd be interested in your thoughts on the 0013 post if you're still up Helen

Helen8220 · 05/04/2021 02:27

I think it was a joke floisme. I'm interested in Helen's posts tbh

Thank you, I appreciate that. I was joking (mostly - I do have some idealistic commie leanings but I realise it hasn’t worked out that well in the real world)

Floisme · 05/04/2021 01:04

Fair enough. Hopefully the preceding paragraph was a joke too. I'll leave you to it.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 00:54

I think it was a joke floisme.

I'm interested in Helen's posts tbh

Floisme · 05/04/2021 00:19

although having some slight commie tendencies I can also see the attraction of standard-issue overalls for everyone!)
Wait. What?
I admit I haven't read all your posts but The fuck?
Wear whatever the hell you like but kindly leave the rest of us out of your totalitarian fantasies.

NiceGerbil · 05/04/2021 00:13

On the visual cues to sex thing. I always talk about this because it was really eye opening for me.

Big brother a few years ago had a guy who was a drag queen. He didn't put on his drag stuff for a few weeks though- so they all got to know him pretty well.

Then he said I'm going to get my gear on and went off and got in his dress, very high heels, something to replicate boobs pushed up, long varnished nails, long blonde 'big' hair, full makeup.

He was a good looking young man and when he came out all legs and hair and heels and eyelashes everyone said wow.

Then the interesting bit. The men in the house who had got to know him were really uncomfortable. What they said etc- all friendly. Made it clear that the 'sexy lady' attire etc was telling them one thing but they knew it was a man. It was confusing and unsettling for them. They didn't like it

And it made me think. With society as it is, and lots of men seeing women they don't know, too often as 2D 'types'. (MILF, old dear, sexy lady, jailbait, ballbreaker etc). Are the trappings much more to them? Do they find it difficult to see a person? Are they even looking?

And so I think maybe there's a big gap in this between men and women which might go some way to explaining why for transwomen the clothes/ makeup etc are important as they clearly signal woman (even if they don't personally want to dress that way) but women are saying ??? of course we can tell who is male and female.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 23:54

The sexuality thing is probably another thread and it's a really interesting topic. What would sexuality look like in a world without enforced/ strongly encouraged (through overt or subtle means) heteronormativity. And without male dominance. We can't know can we but yes I also suspect bisexuality would be more common and also homosexuality with no social/ religious etc stigma.

Helen8220 · 04/04/2021 23:10

On this there should have been accord between feminists who think sex roles are a sack of shit, usually because they themselves have struggled against them, and trans people who want to step outside their sex roles. It would have been great. But look what has happened.

I know, that’s what I find so sad and frustrating about the whole situation, and the reason I’m here.

This bit I am less sure about. How will non gendered clothes work when they need to fit the different bodies of the different sexes? How will the labelling work etc, in practical terms? What about maternity clothes, how will they be labelled?

I suppose to some extent it depends what kind of clothes, and particularly what sort of fit, you prefer, and obviously people come in all sorts of shapes and sizes anyway regardless of sex. There might well still be some clothes designed to fit specifically typical female or male body shapes, but I’m not convinced we need two completely separate sizing systems. And obviously the stark differences in colours, styles, fabrics and designs between clothes aimed at men and women are completely unnecessary.

I also assume it's meant that there would still be loads of interesting clothes to choose from, not that everyone would wear the same?

Absolutely (although having some slight commie tendencies I can also see the attraction of standard-issue overalls for everyone!)

On the last part, I'm not sure how it will work. It's usually pretty obvious who is male and who is female. I'm not sure why or how this would become not known? And while people don't go around wondering about genitals grin the fact is that sexuality exists. An obvious challenge would be porn. I can't see most men losing their preferences for certain types of bodies/ genitals in what they consume. What's your view on that?

I think you’re underestimating how much of the way we instantly ‘clock’ another person’s (assumed) sex is through their hairstyle and clothes (particularly in winter when people are more covered up, and also in the case of very overweight people). I’ve met a fair few butch women where I’ve found myself surreptitiously glancing at their chest to try and check I’d guessed their sex correctly. I’m not saying you wouldn’t be able to work it out in quite a few cases (particularly when you hear people speak), but I think we would stop sorting people so immediately into one of two categories.

On sexuality, I think many more people will be bisexual as heterosexuality gradually ceases to be the assumed norm, and this is born out by the increasing numbers of young people identifying as bi over time (I think in the last census there was a large increase in the 18 to 25 age group?). Also I’ve heard some interesting stats about the surprisingly large number of men who identify as straight yet have had sex with other men - even now there’s a big stigma around it.

I think society has gone backwards hasn't it? In terms of the level of flexibility. It was the mid 90s. Before that you had all sorts of exciting stuff going on. Then BAM oasis, lads mags, and the clothes suddenly went really fucking boring. I assume it was backlash against the previous couple of decades, pushing everyone back into gender boxes. It felt like a male driven change... What the average blokes think of all this is not really considered. I don't think they'll like it much, will they. How can that be changed.

I agree things seem to have gone backwards since the 70s (or so my mother tells me). I put it largely down to capitalism and the drive the find new ways to market things.

In the end if I shave all my hair off and wear 'men's' clothes (which I can't cos I'm a short woman) I'll still be easily recognised as a woman. Because the clothes hair etc is a really small part of it.

Again, while this may be true of a proportion of women, I have a different view of how much difference it would make, particularly in relation to those of us with less traditionally ‘feminine’ body shapes and facial features.

jellyfrizz · 04/04/2021 22:52

*aren’t

jellyfrizz · 04/04/2021 22:01

while at the same time accepting that our current society and culture make it very, very difficult to be radically gender non-confirming, and therefore some people find it almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender.

Society makes it difficult to be many things. Wouldn’t it be better to work on accepting differences and treating people better generally than to pretend there are differences?

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 21:52

@Cattenberg

Do trans women need the presence of other women to validate their identities? And I wonder if the same is true of trans men. Do they need the company of other men to feel validated?
I think men need this more than women. All the male bonding over football etc. I think in a way they do reinforce/ validate their identities in the context of our society.
NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 21:50

@Justhadathought

Almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender

Sex and gender are not the exact same thing. This is the problem.

Gender is a set of expectations around sex role and behaviour - which one may, or may not, conform to; or only conform to in small degrees and so on....

Gender ideology is the problem.

And more than this.

People have differences that just are.

The problem is the assumptions and judgements that are made because of this differences.

EG people with disabilities. If you use a wheelchair, or are blind, or have a severe speech impediment. That can't be hidden with neutral clothes etc. And why should it be? The problem is not people noticing the disability, it's how individuals and society react to it. It's about the world being designed for the 'norm' meaning people who don't fit have extra challenges. (Of course this applies to women as well - invisible women).

The plan sounds very much like the 'i don't see colour' thing. Not seeing differences/ somehow erasing them seems like a poor idea.

And I somehow suspect that 'gender neutral' ends up being (in the UK) average male. That's what happens at the moment. If no one can 'see' sex then how does product design etc work? Safety stuff- look what happened with cars.

Justhadathought · 04/04/2021 21:42

Do trans women need the presence of other women to validate their identities? And I wonder if the same is true of trans men. Do they need the company of other men to feel validated

Being a woman is not an identity. It is just a fact of life on earth. Identity hinges more on associations and affinities...which in time shift and change.

Cattenberg · 04/04/2021 21:38

Do trans women need the presence of other women to validate their identities? And I wonder if the same is true of trans men. Do they need the company of other men to feel validated?

Justhadathought · 04/04/2021 21:38

Almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender

Sex and gender are not the exact same thing. This is the problem.

Gender is a set of expectations around sex role and behaviour - which one may, or may not, conform to; or only conform to in small degrees and so on....

Gender ideology is the problem.

Justhadathought · 04/04/2021 21:35

At the same time accepting that our current society and culture make it very, very difficult to be radically gender non-confirming, and therefore some people find it almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender

I don't accept that this is any more difficult now than it ever has been. In fact we seem to have regressed into more confining roles and expectations- which seems totally in contradiction to the movement of society and the increasing freedom of opportunity for expression of the two sexes.

What has changed is the the advent of Queer Theory and the development of surgery and medical treatment. This, though, to my mind, does not seem very progressive at all. It seems to be at odds with nature and the natural world.

Justhadathought · 04/04/2021 21:28

I completely agree that we should be working towards an end point where biological sex is not seen as in any way predicting or determining personality, tastes, values etc. I envisage that in that future world there will be no gendered names, clothes or pronouns, no sex (or gender) -based segregation (though I realise competitive sports may still present difficult issues), and we would for the most part interact with other people without wondering or caring what chromosomes or genitalia they have

That sounds laudable and very idealistic, but not at all realistic. Life on earth is about the basic instincts too- no matter how we as human beings, with the possibility for transcendence, can rise above our more instinctive natures. Sex and sexuality is just a fact; and the urge for reproduction too.

I'm certainly not one, myself, who believes there are no essential differences between the sexes and that the body/ biological sex is neutral; even as I do recognise that that within each sex there is a spectrum possible expressions, based on the fact that apart from being sexed beings on earth, we are also individuals with individual aptitudes, talents and so on......

i get that the 'trans urge' is an urge for transcendence - but feel that this can be achieved in less physically damaging ways; as well as in ways which also respect and honour the facts of human life on earth in a body. that males and females have some basic natural differences, and that on account of these differences, women and girls ( being more vulnerable in certain ways), require their own private spaces & services, and also the provision of discrete sporting categories in which the female of the species can excel.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 21:13

'I completely agree that we should be working towards an end point where biological sex is not seen as in any way predicting or determining personality, tastes, values etc'

Totally agree and this is what feminists around the world have been striving for, for a very very long time.

On this there should have been accord between feminists who think sex roles are a sack of shit, usually because they themselves have struggled against them, and trans people who want to step outside their sex roles. It would have been great. But look what has happened.

' I envisage that in that future world there will be no gendered names, clothes or pronouns, no sex (or gender) -based segregation (though I realise competitive sports may still present difficult issues), and we would for the most part interact with other people without wondering or caring what chromosomes or genitalia they have.'

This bit I am less sure about. How will non gendered clothes work when they need to fit the different bodies of the different sexes? How will the labelling work etc, in practical terms? What about maternity clothes, how will they be labelled?

I also assume it's meant that there would still be loads of interesting clothes to choose from, not that everyone would wear the same?

On the last part, I'm not sure how it will work. It's usually pretty obvious who is male and who is female. I'm not sure why or how this would become not known? And while people don't go around wondering about genitals Grin the fact is that sexuality exists. An obvious challenge would be porn. I can't see most men losing their preferences for certain types of bodies/ genitals in what they consume.

What's your view on that?

'while at the same time accepting that our current society and culture make it very, very difficult to be radically gender non-confirming, and therefore some people find it almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender.'

I think society has gone backwards hasn't it? In terms of the level of flexibility. It was the mid 90s. Before that you had all sorts of exciting stuff going on. Then BAM oasis, lads mags, and the clothes suddenly went really fucking boring. I assume it was backlash against the previous couple of decades, pushing everyone back into gender boxes. It felt like a male driven change... What the average blokes think of all this is not really considered. I don't think they'll like it much, will they. How can that be changed.

In the end if I shave all my hair off and wear 'men's' clothes (which I can't cos I'm a short woman) I'll still be easily recognised as a woman. Because the clothes hair etc is a really small part of it.

NiceGerbil · 04/04/2021 20:55

I would say again that it's not the words themselves that are the problem.

Many words that started out as just terms end up used as slurs or in a horrible way.

For this in action a good example is words to describe people with learning/ physical disabilities over the years.

Then there is a drive to stop the words being used because they are used as insults. And then the new words go through the same cycle.

The problem is not the words it's the antipathy towards the people they describe. Until that is addressed, any words will become used as insults etc.

For women especially feminists we've had words thrown at us for years.
Bitch
Witch
Strident
Dyke
Ugly
Etc

The interesting ones are where women are labelled as not womaning properly. Things like unladylike, unfeminine, mannish. The suggestion is that to be judged as not adhering to these ideas is a massive insult. Of course the women in question often don't find that very insulting, and it says more about the person saying it and what they think women are like, than anything else.

If terms like GC or TRA or TE*F are suddenly vanished, then new ones with the same meaning will simply take their place.

It's a side track really to me. However I suppose the focus on language and labels seems to be important in lots of different areas and has been for a fair while. So while i have my view I totally understand why this conversation is happening.

Helen8220 · 04/04/2021 19:07

Would you mind explaining a bit more Helen?

I agree that gender norms are damaging but think that the key to getting rid of them would be people expressing themselves how they wish without that being anything to do their sex.

It is not challenging gender norms to say I like things traditionally associated with women therefore I have a woman brain. It is reinforcing them surely?

I completely agree that we should be working towards an end point where biological sex is not seen as in any way predicting or determining personality, tastes, values etc. I envisage that in that future world there will be no gendered names, clothes or pronouns, no sex (or gender) -based segregation (though I realise competitive sports may still present difficult issues), and we would for the most part interact with other people without wondering or caring what chromosomes or genitalia they have.

I think it’s possible to work towards that future (by challenging people when they make sex/gender based assumptions etc) while at the same time accepting that our current society and culture make it very, very difficult to be radically gender non-confirming, and therefore some people find it almost impossible to live with people perceiving them to be a particular sex/gender.

ArabellaScott · 04/04/2021 16:09

Oh, I could well be wrong. This woman claims to have coined it - www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/29/im-credited-with-having-coined-the-acronym-terf-heres-how-it-happened

She says she intended it as neutral:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERF

sorry, Daisies, you were quite right!