Page 4 | 17 year old daughter has asked for full sex change.

LipstickLou · 2021-03-31T05:55:32+00:00

DD has had lots of issues at school after an attack aged 13. Last week she tried to hurt herself claiming if I didn't support full gender reassignment she would kill herself. She has worn male clothes for 3 years and called herself by various different boy names among her friends. We now have CAMHS involvement. Last year she told me she was a girl and liked boys. I now find her boyfriend is bi sexual with a preference for boys. Her close friends are all LGBTQ. I feel she is being pressurised by these people to have operations that are irreversible. She is the youngest of the group and no longer goes to college. She has followed various YouTubers including 'Miles'. These friends are constantly in the background talking to her at 2am in the morning. I am sick with worry that she will raise the money and go abroad behind my back. I am also heartbroken. She was the queen of pink. She hit puberty at 11 and is quite top heavy which she hates. I am at my wits end. And before I am trolled my best friend is gay and I have employed a number of transgender people. Has anyone received any help for a teen such as mine DD? I really don't think she is thinking about the consequences and her father agrees.

NowtSalamander · 31/03/2021 10:06

R0wan I’m just listening to the latest Gender podcast too - Stella and Sasha are so great. Thoroughly second this, OP.

WallaceinAnderland · 31/03/2021 09:58

She sounds very confused OP and is making you the enemy so that she has something to fight against. You need to take yourself out of it. Tell her that it's nothing to do with you, you can't make anything happen. She will have to follow the process that everyone does and get herself on a waiting list. If she is proactive enough to do that, you have at least 2 years breathing space and you won't be the enemy any more.

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 09:53

@APHR0DITE

i just think you should talk to your child : if they really are trans and are not being pressured into it, you misgendering them and deadnaming them is going to make things worse. obviously they cannot get a " sex change " straight away, but maybe you should test out using their preferred name and pronouns? less than 8% of trans people detransition. even if you don't " agree " with what they are doing, using their preferred name and pronouns can help them test out whether or not they really are trans and will probably end up stopping them from making major decisions too soon :]

I do talk to her but she doesn't make sense. I call her by an abbreviation of her male name. She calls herself a girl? I did try to explain what surgery meant and she won't discuss it. I know she dislikes her body I am querying how changing sex will help her. She also uses her feminine name to family and our friends. She is certainly not owning this.

OP posts:

Thecatonthemat · 31/03/2021 09:39

I wonder if a martial art or even boxing might make her feel more confident and strong in her body so that she can protect herself. It would show that as a girl she can still do things that she thinks boys and men can do. I am not surprised that the combination of having been attacked , her on line involvement, her group of friends and the general atmosphere towards girls these days is pushing her in the direction of transitioning. But of course she won’t be able to change sex, she will always be a girl and the medical price to pay is a high one in terms of side effects. Try to talk to her about the parts of her body she doesn’t like...she may have been picked on for eg her breasts. But the bf needs to be watched ...if he is gay then he should know that she will not be gay if he transitions and he has no business influencing her. Re your reference to “ gay predatory men” it is very unlikely that she would be seen as male. But yes there are men who are predatory as she probably knows already. So sorry she and you are going through this. She will come out of it but only with your commitment and care .

WallaceinAnderland · 31/03/2021 09:25

If she is threatening suicide to get her own way, she is nowhere near mature enough to make a decision about surgery. I would go with that. There's no point arguing rationally because what she believes is not rational. You can say that there is at least a 2 year waiting list and she would have to speak with counsellors. Presumably, at her age, she can self refer.

R0wantrees · 31/03/2021 09:24

LipstickLou Gender: A Wider Lens Podcast series is really worth listening to
Two therapists explore the expanding concept of "gender" from a psychological depth perspective.
gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/

I was listening to episode 14 this morning and was struck by how potentially relevant it seemed to your posts.

The REAL Ways to Manage Gender Dysphoria
The misinformed presumption that gender dysphoria can only be managed through medication and/or surgery is blown out of the water in this episode. Sasha and Stella emphasize that dysphoria is a type of human distress, like any other. They discuss many different ways to understand, manage, and reduce gender dysphoria.

Links:

“The Detransitioners” by Laura Dodsworth, The Sunday Times
Alternatives to Deal with Gender Dysphoria, by Nelemil
Illusory truth effect
William Glasser’s Emotional Needs
The Time in Between: A Memoir of Hunger and Hope, by Nancy Tucker
“Advice for Gender Dysphoric Teens”
“Storm Warnings,” by Adrienne Rich
Extended Notes

Gender dysphoria is mental distress.
What are some of the best ways to manage gender dysphoria?
If someone is distressed, what should we be looking at?
Insomnia is a manifestation of anxiety.
Are you fixated on a certain type of body and jealous you don’t have it?
The more you see something, even if you don’t believe it at first, the more you accept it as reality later down the line. Be conscious of what you’re exposing yourself to.
If you had mental distress, it was your problem. Therapy wasn’t exactly “the go-to” solution.
Are you a parent in a rush to get your gender dysphoria child better?
There is so much power in working out and owning the changes in your body.
Our bodies can teach us a lot of things if we engage them correctly.
What is social dysphoria?
People are so afraid to say something bad or something else, but it’s your right to feel angry if it angers you!
We come from apes. We were killers for survival and we all have a dark side. In our society, we can’t let that out in a healthy way.
If you believe changing your body will make you happy, you’re going to spend a lot of time in that fantasy.
Exercise: Measure your mood before you go online and after. Do you feel better or worse?
A lot of phobias come from teens coming into their new bodies. New breasts, hair, and period pains.
People are really grappling with the concept of privilege and what means.
It is assumed that people who are privileged have an easy life, but this can end up suppressing a lot of core emotions or minimizing real thoughts.
Many trans people have transitioned, and their feelings of gender dysphoria still remain."
gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/14-the-real-ways-to-manage-gender-dysphoria

PopperUppleton · 31/03/2021 09:15

I know it's perfectly bloody obvious but is she completely aware that she can never actually change sex? That taking testosterone will give her a deep voice, facial and body hair and the ability to pack on muscle, and surgery may give her a facsimile of a male body, but underneath all of that she will still be a slight framed human female with small hands? I was a great big lumbering girl so I would have 'passed' well as a man, but my sister, for example, is a head shorter and many stones lighter, so she wouldn't have.

secretskillrelationships · 31/03/2021 09:09

Given the history of trauma and resistance to counselling, I was wondering if another approach might be better. EMDR is particularly good for PTSD and seems to require less retelling so can feel much less threatening as an approach. But if even that seems to much maybe something very physical - massage, reflexology etc can help with connecting with her physical body and I know an acupuncturist who has a special interest in treating adolescents with poor mental health.

Helleofabore · 31/03/2021 09:01

less than 8% of trans people detransition

Where are you getting this information from? I think you might be stating the % of medicalised detransition (those who have had surgery and/or hormones). The rates are higher for ‘social’ transition.

Please be very careful when giving a parent advice to make sure you have evidenced statistics.

Beowulfa · 31/03/2021 08:55

How stressful.

Just to pick up on the volunteering aspect, I get quite evangelical about Riding for the Disabled Association (RDA) work. You don't need to have any equine experience to volunteer, and as it's an outdoorsy activity it's restarted this week. You meet people with physical and learning disabilities, and from all backgrounds so it's very good at making you appreciate what you have in life. Crucially the horses don't give a shit about sexuality, ethnicity, religion etc. I've seen lots of shy, awkward teenagers really blossom and mature when they realise what a difference they can make. I wish I'd done it when I was a teen.

APHR0DITE · 31/03/2021 08:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 08:42

@intheenddoesitreallymatter

God, OP, I have no words for how traumatic this must be.

She’s seventeen so very much a grown up, you need to sit down with her and explain to her how it’s not as simple as ‘having the change’. To begin the procedure of transitioning she needs to be extremely explicit and detailed with a number of therapists so if she can’t tell the doctor she wants to be a boy she stands no chance.

If she’s still insistent what are her plans? Will she be going off to uni? Can she get away from said friends? Do you know the friends?

I’m so sorry to hear she was attacked. Without being intrusive may I ask was the attack sexual? Has it manifested into a phobia of her own body perhaps? If she has male genitalia nobody would be able to hurt her? If she was a man she could stop it happening?

Do you talk in general? Are you open with your feelings etc? I would say start going on one on one walks daily/go for a coffee etc just to give her the platform to discuss her feelings.

Some of the charities above sound great. I hope everything works out.

She has never discussed the attack but we think it was sexual. I absolutely think she sees maleness as strength She stopped going to school on the days that included PE. She used to change her bra as she is top heavy as previously mentioned. We changed her school to an all girls (not really successful as they made her have counselling). They suggested a sexual attack. She went to two more schools until settling close to home with a good set of friends. She talks a bit but clams up if I ask her why she wants to do this. I have asked her if someone is putting pressure on her and she says no. She isn't ASD and has no learning difficulties. She is not in school at the moment as they asked her to retake yr13. She says she doesn't want to. She is isolated in my opinion. Covid has been very hard on her as she is asthmatic and she is frightened of catching it. She is to have her jab shortly.

OP posts:

twelly · 31/03/2021 08:35

I believe that the dramatic increase to change gender is a trend fuelled by social media and activists who have their own agenda. That said it doesn't make it any easier for parents, they deal with the fallout, the heartbreak and the aftermath. I think teenagers want to rebel and being vegetarian and dressing as whatever is the latest trend is not enough. In many ways I am not sure that some of the state run help organisations do help as they have to tow the now alarming live that it's normal to want to be a different gender. I think these things will pass but my concern is that fuelled by interested parties with agendas teenagers get so far in they can't turn back. I would suggest private counselling which hopefully will deal with all the teenage angst in the hope that provides focus and calms down the situation. I am so sorry that you are experiencing this - I believe lockdown has exasperated these issues.

intheenddoesitreallymatter · 31/03/2021 08:32

God, OP, I have no words for how traumatic this must be.

She’s seventeen so very much a grown up, you need to sit down with her and explain to her how it’s not as simple as ‘having the change’. To begin the procedure of transitioning she needs to be extremely explicit and detailed with a number of therapists so if she can’t tell the doctor she wants to be a boy she stands no chance.

If she’s still insistent what are her plans? Will she be going off to uni? Can she get away from said friends? Do you know the friends?

I’m so sorry to hear she was attacked. Without being intrusive may I ask was the attack sexual? Has it manifested into a phobia of her own body perhaps? If she has male genitalia nobody would be able to hurt her? If she was a man she could stop it happening?

Do you talk in general? Are you open with your feelings etc? I would say start going on one on one walks daily/go for a coffee etc just to give her the platform to discuss her feelings.

Some of the charities above sound great. I hope everything works out.

midgedude · 31/03/2021 08:26

Aweful

I think you are best in some kind of stalling /holding pattern at present ... like others have said the pandemic won't be helping , and as she grows up and gets out and about more things might resolve in her mind

I can't think of much practical though , I grew up in a different world with much less awareness of trans and no online manipulation

Keep loving her...make it really clear you love her, you think she's perfect , you are proud of her. Help her focus on the strengths that she is comfortable with .. are there computing projects she could do ? )a visualisation of something you don't understand , analysis of pandemic data for your area..,,work experience?

Make it really clear that it's the evidence that makes you cautious, because you want what is right for her .

I guess she may be feeling ( Unreasonably) guilty about the bad stuff?

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 08:26

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

this new way for distressed teenagers to manifest their distress is utterly nightmarish for parents as the harms involved are so long term but our voices are shut down by the political narrative

So true. I hope the good advice offered here can help you both.

There are some great websites mentioned. Thank you all. The task will be to get her to look at the other view. Any challenge is viewed as transphobic and she knows that is not us. I do know it is a very long process. The challenge will come at 21 when she gets her hands on some family money. I am hoping someone who counsels her will listen to me. I am not sure if they will once she is 18.

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thinkingaboutLangCleg · 31/03/2021 08:15

this new way for distressed teenagers to manifest their distress is utterly nightmarish for parents as the harms involved are so long term but our voices are shut down by the political narrative

So true. I hope the good advice offered here can help you both.

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 08:13

[quote FlyPassed]Probably a silly question in the middle of a pandemic but is there a way to reduce her time online?

I always remember Chiara from Piques Resilience Project talking about how she desisted after spending time living at a ranch with no internet access. Being close to nature and animals helped refocus her mind. Not suggesting you send her to some reception-free wilderness, but is there something she can do in the physical world, with her body? Gardening, painting, zumba classes...?

Piques Resilience Project
youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA

Chiara's mum founded 4th Wave Now which is a good resource. Best of luck

4thwavenow.com/[/quote]
She is a computer 'hacker' so no.

She does some cooking and walks the dog. I am trying to get her to restart her volunteer Saturday job once the charity shops open again. This was a happy activity for her and she was well liked.

OP posts:

FlyPassed · 31/03/2021 08:05

Probably a silly question in the middle of a pandemic but is there a way to reduce her time online?

I always remember Chiara from Piques Resilience Project talking about how she desisted after spending time living at a ranch with no internet access. Being close to nature and animals helped refocus her mind. Not suggesting you send her to some reception-free wilderness, but is there something she can do in the physical world, with her body? Gardening, painting, zumba classes...?

Piques Resilience Project
youtube.com/channel/UCmGEMjyAwk6R1lTmG_JjLUA

Chiara's mum founded 4th Wave Now which is a good resource. Best of luck

4thwavenow.com/

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 07:58

@Couchbettato

I'm so sorry OP. The problem with impressionable young people is that they think they're not that impressionable and they truly believe they're making an informed choice when they also take offence when the cons of the situation are laid out in front of them.

You've been provided some really good resources but I would definitely tell her that your support is for her overall happiness and wellbeing and if she wants to transition she's got to accept you're her mum and you want the best for her, including talking through the pros and the cons together and just hope it will lead her to her own sensible conclusion.

From what you've written it sounds like she likes a boy who doesn't really like her back all that much and she's taking drastic action because she's absolutely smitten.

She needs to be absolutely sure that she's changing her body for herself and not for any one else or she's just going to end up feeling like she's fallen down a hole she can't get out of for the rest of her life. And transitioning FtM is an absolutely humongous transition with a significant fail rate for phalloplasty.

I think she has found a group of people that she feels comfortable with and has been 'picked' as the transsexual. She has no male sensibilities. She likes Marvel, that is it. No football, rugby, beer, guns etc. She is very softly spoken, with small features and hands. I fear for her safety. She would be pray for abusive gay men. Personally I don't think she is well enough to make an informed decision however with so many professionals pushing for trans rights I fear she will be steam rolled. She is highly intelligent (studies law) and can be very convincing if she wants something.

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persistentwoman · 31/03/2021 07:57

So sorry to hear this OP. In addition to the suggestions above, I would do what is possible to reengage your child in ordinary life. She's living an online life (no doubt exacerbated by lockdown) and she needs to gently re engage with reality.
At it's most simple (and involve the rest of the family) do things with her - a walk, coffee out, a shopping trip, cook a meal, shop for the meal, even housework etc. Obviously as lockdown ends the options become a bit more exciting! Has she had any hobbies to reengage with? Anything that helps her re see herself as a sister, daughter, friend, singer, volunteer, team member etc.
These are small steps but important for her mental health and they can help take everyone's attention off this issue which is consuming her.
Wishing you well.

Couchbettato · 31/03/2021 07:50

I'm so sorry OP. The problem with impressionable young people is that they think they're not that impressionable and they truly believe they're making an informed choice when they also take offence when the cons of the situation are laid out in front of them.

You've been provided some really good resources but I would definitely tell her that your support is for her overall happiness and wellbeing and if she wants to transition she's got to accept you're her mum and you want the best for her, including talking through the pros and the cons together and just hope it will lead her to her own sensible conclusion.

From what you've written it sounds like she likes a boy who doesn't really like her back all that much and she's taking drastic action because she's absolutely smitten.

She needs to be absolutely sure that she's changing her body for herself and not for any one else or she's just going to end up feeling like she's fallen down a hole she can't get out of for the rest of her life. And transitioning FtM is an absolutely humongous transition with a significant fail rate for phalloplasty.

Leafstamp · 31/03/2021 07:39

@LipstickLou

As before. We are a mixed heritage family and a very open minded bunch. Her older brother says she is doing it to hurt me and the family. Why I do not know. I cry all the time and cannot sleep. I would like to get the little shit of a boyfriend and find out why he is encouraging her. She comes out with expressions such as 'A will love me even more when I am James'. I think it is grooming.

As you know, the behaviour from the boyfriend is a huge red flag. I wonder how your DD would respond if he was asking her to get a boob job/lip fillers or even just dye her hair or lose weight. Could you ask her this?

Asked from the sex change business, your poor DD needs to learn what a healthy relationship looks like.

My heart goes out to you OP

Original poster

LipstickLou · 31/03/2021 07:38

@NutellaEllaElla

If she refuses counselling but 'transition' treatment protocol requires 2 years of it, how does she expect to undergo a 'full sex change'?

As you say, it sounds as though her mental health is the priority here and she is suffering from the consequences of the attack. Is she under the care of a Clinical Psychologist in CAMHS? This needs pushing if not.

She does have a Clinical Psychologist. She is being referred for 'happy pills'. She told them she was suicidal. She didn't tell the Dr she wanted to be a boy (interestingly not a man).

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BluebellsGreenbells · 31/03/2021 07:38

www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/naomi-schaefer-riley/transgender-children-craze/

Perfect article