AZ clotting issue affects mainly women

That's my opinion too

My own opinion is that the clotting events may well be from the vaccine but it looks to be about 1 per 100,000 so the odds with the vaccine appear much much better than the odd with covid itself. Ideally if we are on alert for this syndrome we can treat it successfully. If we can later identify a proper risk profile perhaps some could receive a different vaccine. But basically it’s best to continue and it’s not worth worrying about too much, relative to other daily risks.

This from expert haematological panel says both genders, no clear risk profile b-s-h.org.uk/media/19512/guidance-version-10-on-mngmt-of-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-occurring-after-c-19-vaccine_20210401.pdf

So far, we haven’t had a single other demographic group with the covid vax where there is a suggestion that they should take the risk for the sake of others

Eh? What is this referring to? Everyone is actually being asked to be vaccinated for their own good and the good of others. There is a lot of illogical scare- mongering on this thread.

The difficulty is that to understand more about the risk factors you need more cases to be able to see any pattern. I guess no-one would really wish that on anyone.

It's not even clear to me that the thread title is correct. The recent case in Australia and at least 5 of the U.K. cases were men. They frustratingly don't seem to have released the age and sex break down of the 30 U.K. cases.
That might be a confidentiality thing because for such a rare condition if you publish extra info it may then be personally identifying.
Thus far I'd say that it's far from proven whether women are more at risk.

It's good to see this thread is a little bit more measured than others discussing the vaccine. While the EU vaccine rollout has been a shambles, I really don't think any EU country wants a significant percentage of their supply to be undermined, further delaying the rollout. If countries are pausing, I believe it will be primarily out of patient concern, not politics.
While the UK are using AZ in younger people, they are also using it in the older population, which European countries aren't, so for a given number of doses administered the effect is likely to be diluted.
From what I have read so far the clots are still very rare and I would happily take the vaccine, but it would be really great if we could understand more. As others have suggested, maybe the pill or HRT? I don't think the risk is high enough to disrupt the rollout - that would cost more lives. But further digging and understanding the risk factors is essential.

Feelings run very high round covid - you only need to have read a few of the MN threads in lockdown to see people saying going for a walk was killing people. And others saying it is all a conspiracy. People (including governments) take entrenched positions and only want evidence that backs up their point of view. But more than that - there seems a more general lack of scientific understanding both in the general public and politicians. Eg Politicians thinking a 0.1% false positive rate from LFT is too low to worry about without realising that that translates into a class in every secondary self isolating for no reason with every round of testing (they did do a u turn on this eventually).

The difference between covid and flu for children is they spread flu but are not effective spreaders of covid. The risk in primary schools comes from the adults: adult to adult spread and adult to child spread. So not only are children at very low risk from covid, they are also not likely to spread it. So there does not seem to be any justification to vaccinate them.

I saw an article in a paper recently about scientists (mainstream uk professors in epidemiology, public health and infectious disease specialists, statisticians) whose work contradicted the public messages on covid. They were talking about being cancelled, trolled, attacked, others being afraid of speaking up in support - and of being accused of receiving shady far right funding. They complained that no one engaged with their science or methodology and offered criticism of that which they would respect. The attacks were personal instead. It all sounded very familiar and mkes me despair for the state of intellectual discorse and academia.

Yes @Tibtom I do know what you mean re the flu vax and children. I suspect you are being far more level headed about this than I am. I’m just feeling so enraged right now about how badly women are treated that I am somewhat hyper vigilant to this being another example.
Re children and covid vax however, I was quite shocked to hear it being discussed on the news (R4 Today Prog earlier this wk) in precisely the terms of: children should only get a vaccine where the risk of adverse reactions is lower than the risk TO THEM from covid (I think the context is they HAVE found a vax to give to kids, but will only give it to kids at high risk of covid). Because you are right that when it comes to flu vax, kids basically get it to protect their grandparents, not themselves. I think perhaps the terms are a bit different atm because we have a very new vaccine and still much to learn about it (inc unknown tweaks needed to it to cope with new variants). Let’s all keep talking and watching this. I feel unable to discuss with many friends atm as I don’t want to alarm people unnecessarily, and there are many nuances to it.

The problem is that as they vaccinate the younger cohort, these cases are likely to increase (if what happened in Norway/Germany/Denmark is anything to go by). Many young people have had Covid and been asymptomatic or suffered very little in the way of symptoms. I just cannot see a justification for making them have this vaccine when there are other vaccines available.

@Carefulvulvadriver that piece of information seems to be lacking. I've looked all over the press for it.

So far, we haven’t had a single other demographic group with the covid vax where there is a suggestion that they should take the risk for the sake of others.

Wait till they license it for children, who as a group have probably paid the biggest cost to date for the sake of others due to covid. They already receive the flu vaccination for the sake of older people.

I do get what you mean. But how does this vaccine compare to the full risk profile of others? It is still a very very rare adverse event and it will take a while to get the full picture for any vaccine when you are looking at incidents at this level of frequency. Including new ones.

The Ft report on the 17 doesn’t give a sex break down. I think I’d seen elsewhere that the UK cases were largely men so far. Has anyone seen a break down for the latest set?

17 more cases of CVST reported in the UK now:
on.ft.com/2PQbzNQ

Yes @Tibtom I agree re much still not known re the cases recently observed.

I understand the point about the greater good, but that’s also what I was alluding to about not wanting this to be another thing women are thrown under a bus for. So far, we haven’t had a single other demographic group with the covid vax where there is a suggestion that they should take the risk for the sake of others.
Funny how that only becomes an issue when it’s women who face the potentially increased relative risk.
That’s not an argument for women NOT being vaxd. It’s a potential argument (after the evidence has been properly gathered and examined) for finding an alternative vax for women. And yes, you’re absolutely right it’s not just a question of shelling out. Supply is a massive issue, so if it came to needing an alt vax for women under 55, then there would be some delay built into that - and the risks to those women and society at large which comes with it. But perhaps what’s more likely is that more research on this will lead to an identification of more specific risk factors for women and the AZ, which might mean only a small portion of women would need an alternative

It is not simply 'shelling out for new vaccines', it about supply. Nor is it just about those vaccinated - vaccine always have an element of 'for the universal good'. Women don't get vaccinated against Rubella for their own benefit. So when comparing outcomes you cannot simply look at the target group, you also need to look at the impact of not vaccinating (due to lack of availability) on the population as a whole. If these women are receivibg the vaccine due to occulational roles then they will both be at higher risk of covid and also at higher risk of spreading it to more vulnnerable individuals.
Also if this clotting is only observed in one country not others then that suggests a high likelihood of confounding.

I strongly recommend this article, written by one of the founders of the Cochrane Collaboration, which was set up to aid the systematic use of high quality evidence in medicine:

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/03/astrazeneca-vaccine-blood-clot-issue-wont-go-away/618451/

She is worried, and she also sets out the complicated dilemmas governments and health professionals face with this. There is still much we don’t know and it’s really really important this is looked at.

The AZ vax is very cheap compared to the others - it’s been provided at cost price. That means our gov has a reason to keep using it (especially as we have pre-ordered so much of it) and yes, probably other pharmaceutical companies have a reason to slam it. None of the information we have at present exists in a nice pure vacuum where these issues are removed.

But, the available evidence as it currently appears is that Az does seem to be correlated with a very specific form of deadly blood clotting which is usually extremely rare. It is wrong to just compare those incidents and deaths to general “blood clotting”. This is a very specific type of clotting.

It’s also wrong to compare the risk of experiencing one of these blood clots to the overall risk from covid. The cases (and deaths) in Europe do seem to be strongly concentrated in women under 55. So the relevant comparator is the risk from covid to women under 55 (and the case rate after the vaccine likewise needs to be compared to the number of women under 55 who have had the AZ, not the total jabs to date).

I also think that with the death rate from these clots being so high in the European cases, we cannot dismiss this as “hyper vigilance” - as something just picked up because people are alert to post vax side effects. This isn’t just a sore arm.

That said, there is still a lot we don’t know. I am usually very pro vax. I remain very pro covid vax, but I want this looked at urgently.
I don’t want this to be yet another thing women are thrown under a bus for. If the gov (and taxpayer) needs to shell out to pay for alternative vaccines for women under 55, then that is what they must do.

If they get knocked over by a bus on the way home from having their vaccine, would people say it causes RTAs?

Off topic but apparently catching toxoplasmosis increases your risk of being involved in car accidents.

an expert- who pointed out that we are much more likely to have blood clot issues, eg stroke, thrombosis in legs / lungs if we have Covid than if we don’t/ so the best protection is to have the vaccination.

I'll be interested to see if the lockdown-associated level of sedentariness increases the incidence of clotting disorders/ischaemic leg/PAD etc.

In 2016, 57,000 people had their first stroke in the UK. That’s 156 people per day. Figures are similar for current years. By the law of averages, some of those people will have had their Covid vaccination on or just before the days when they have their stroke. That doesn’t mean the vaccine caused it. If they get knocked over by a bus on the way home from having their vaccine, would people say it causes RTAs? It might sound like I’m being flippant, but I’m trying to show that things aren’t happening just because of vaccines.

@zeev you said that most of the people getting AZ in the UK are over 55. Where did you get that data from please?

Millions of people under 55 have been vaccinated- how do you know they got Pfizer?