Rugby - RFU seeking feedback on its transgender policy

He's a man who used to play rugby so maybe they will read his survey answers.

I think perhaps we all need to identify as men who play rugby when filling in the “consultation”.

Thanks for the link.

DH and I are watching the video.

He used to play rugby.

He laughed incredulously when they said that a player's size is not related to how likely they are to cause injury.

We have both filled it in.

He's a man who used to play rugby so maybe they will read his survey answers.

Going back to Billie Jean King and Bobby Riggs for a moment....remember Renée Richards, who transitioned (surgically) aged 41 in the 1970s, after a highly successful athletic career, and then as a tennis player fought to compete in the US Open as a woman?

According to Wiki: Richards has since expressed ambivalence about her legacy, and came to believe her past as a man provided her with advantages over her competitors, saying "Having lived for the past 30 years, I know if I'd had surgery at the age of 22, and then at 24 went on the tour, no genetic woman in the world would have been able to come close to me. And so I've reconsidered my opinion."

They seem to have deleted most of their replies from this twitter.com/EnglandRugby/status/1378791983930544130?s=20 I saw it on Sunday things were not going as they expected.

It’s good to see improved inclusion for trans and male identifying players

What is this Mermaids nonsense? Oh yes, there is definitely a problem with including "male identifying" players as distinct from trans players in rugby. Presumably Verity believes that all men "identify as men" so one would imagine it's manly male men who are being talked about. What a ridiculous statement.

I suspect it was a poor choice of word RoyalCorgi but if not, the first sentence may explain the last one.

LOL, I hadn't spotted the ambiguity in "former male players"!

Anyway, when I turn this stuff over in my head, I go through a cycle of enraged, depressed, baffled. Or sometimes all at once. I feel the same about the decision in California to put trans women (aka violent male offenders) in women's prisons. Is it because they are stupid? Or because they hate women? Or just a combination of the two?

Thanks for the link. I've filled it in.

The RFU is currently facing lawsuits from a group of former male players suffering dementia as a result of repeated concussion in training. The idea of allowing male-bodied people to play on women's teams isn't just unfair, it's utterly fucking demented.

I suspect it was a poor choice of word RoyalCorgi but if not, the first sentence may explain the last one.

However, the idea that a male-bodied person competes on a level playing field with a female-bodied person is just so ludicrous. Rigg was already disadvantaged by age when he played her, regardless of any discrepancies in training intensity.

Yes, and don't forget Rigg had already beaten Margaret Court when he played King. He probably thought he could relax.

I don't know how many trans women there are playing in women's tennis. Obviously if a half-decent male player decides to identify as female, he will very quickly start scooping up the prizes. What I really don't understand about the RFU's position is that this isn't just an issue of fairness (even though it is clearly massively unfair to women), it's an issue of safety. Anyone who knows even a teeny weeny amount about rugby knows it's a dangerous sport. The RFU is currently facing lawsuits from a group of former male players suffering dementia as a result of repeated concussion in training. The idea of allowing male-bodied people to play on women's teams isn't just unfair, it's utterly fucking demented. How can the sport's ruling body even contemplate such a thing? I can only assume they really hate women and want to hurt us.

@TinyRebel I honestly couldn't believe it when I saw it, they are absolutely vile and just don't get it do they?
Women's rugby has taken off massively, why are they looking to destroy it?
To attempt to doxx you is absolutely disgusting.
Maybe the old boys at the RFU have threatened the women with reduced funding or something.
Just a few years ago the top ladies teams were playing in the men's kit, just a few seasons out of date. (That's how seriously they were taken) Now they are a separate entity, why why why pull the ladder up?

The US left has lost its collective mind over this.

I watched the film The Battle of the Sexes a few years ago. What struck me was how hard BJK had to train in order to beat Rigg - a man twenty years older than her who had retired from professional tennis (iirc). Yes, she beat him - but according to the film, she was out on the court training everyday while he was messing around with TV interviews and gameshows. If he had put in the same amount of training, I think he would have beaten her.

Now, obviously it was a film and had artistic licence. Maybe she didn't train so hard as portrayed.

However, the idea that a male-bodied person competes on a level playing field with a female-bodied person is just so ludicrous. Rigg was already disadvantaged by age when he played her, regardless of any discrepancies in training intensity.

Sadly, I am a pessimist. I don't think things will change until it becomes clear that a handful of mtf transitioners are dominating women's sport and several women end up seriously hurt from clashing with mtf transitioners. Obviously Tamika Brents has already had her skull broken, but apparently that's not enough.

I just think if sports orgs were going to listen to reason, they would have done so by now.

I've just done the survey not sure if has been linked so link here

www.englandrugby.com/about-rfu/rfu-policies/transgender-policy

I may have had a mini rant about the use of 'ciswoman' pointing out that women / girls playing rugby are not corresponding to the gender roles that 'cis' implies.

DH was aghast and will do the survey.

Suggest anyone who knows men who have played rugby or who are interested ask them to fill it out

They are more likely to listen to them

I filled it out, but I'm such a bloody pessimist about this these days that I feel that yet another woman explaining why she feels it isn't safe for adult xy chromosome owners to play with/against natal women and vice-versa will be thrown on the discard pile. The Stony lot have done another job on them.

I filled it in. Told them I was confident they weren't so stupid as to believe that there was no harm to be done with these policies.

I don't think they are that stupid. I also don't think they don't care.

I found this from USA which I know was discussed before.

www.womenssportsfoundation.org/press_release/billie-jean-king-megan-rapinoe-and-candace-parker-join-nearly-200-athletes-supporting-trans-youth-participation-in-sports/

They all say

If trans girls (and it seems to focus on girls, not women) can't compete with the girls then that means they are denied access to sport

(??!!)

And

Be kind.

That's it.

I really can't understand why female sports people support this. I don't get it at all.

What on earth can the thinking be?

I got into a Twitter 'discussion' on this subject with a much plaudited England womens International - hiding behind her business handle. She was absolutely vile towards me, demanding to know what I do for grassroots rugby, even attempted to doxx me (@ some other poor random woman). I was utterly stunned

Will she feel the same when she finds herself playing against a team with 3 transwomen in it?

persistent yes I saw it being discussed on a rugby FB group. Posted uptrend about one man suggesting the women said no.

Is this being talked about anywhere else does anyone know? I did see one brilliant commentator has managed to quote RFU's frankly deranged definition of a woman as someone who doesn't produce male levels of testosterone under today's Melanie Phillips article in the Times.
Well done

Have the RFU made any comment about why they (or who) devised that spectacularly awful definition?

[quote IDontOnlyLikeJazzFunk]I checked the World Rugby regulations - surprise surprise, exogenous testosterone is on the list of banned substances.

Words cannot express how livid I am at these idiots.

pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/06/52879e75-53cb-49ce-9133-19bf2a619c9a/120906GFIRBRegulation21FullVersion.pdf[/quote]
Well of course it is!

The whole shit show is utterly rage inducing.

I checked the World Rugby regulations - surprise surprise, exogenous testosterone is on the list of banned substances.

Words cannot express how livid I am at these idiots.

pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2014/11/06/52879e75-53cb-49ce-9133-19bf2a619c9a/120906GFIRBRegulation21FullVersion.pdf

Their position on trans men shows how deranged their thinking is. Obviously it would be ridiculous to allow women taking testosterone to play on a women's team because, as IDontOnly states, that would be allowing performing-enhancing drugs.

Equally, it would be INSANE to allow women taking testosterone to play on a men's team because they would be beaten to a pulp at the first outing.

I have no idea how England Rugby can be so stupid as to even contemplate men and women playing contact rugby together. It is one of the maddest things I have ever heard of in my life.

In respect of a transgender man/boy who has commenced testosterone or gender re-assignment treatment, the player may no longer be permitted to play women’s or girl’s contact rugby. In such situation, the player must submit an application to the RFU in accordance with this Policy and the Panel will determine what level of assessment is required in order to determine if the player is permitted to continue playing women’s contact rugby.

I mentioned performance enhancing drugs on the cycling thread just now but it occurs to me that it is very relevant here. This paragraph from the proposed policy implies that they will consider allowing people that are taking performance enhancing drugs.

You would hope that any athlete taking performance enhancing drugs would be against the rules for any sport so why would England Rugby even be considering this.

I forgot to mention this in my rant in their consultation so maybe if anyone agrees with my point and hasn't done it yet they could include it on theirs?