Transman Prinz Chiyo Gomes splits gay community: gay man accused of hate

I would give up most things in life if it meant something to someone else but I appreciate that's the easiest thing in the world to say sometimes

And is total anathema to me and many others. Value yourself.

Women are socialised to do such stuff, almost no matter what the cost to themselves. Feminists tend to stand up and say "Fuck that!" and do their best to recognise when we are acting out this socialisation.

That is why "Be nice" is such a red rag to many here.

I was basing that on things I have seen currently.

I will read further into her statements though thank you

I like the idea of that :)

Love the name by the way!

Thank you and you are correct.

I just wanted to champion someone and my apologies come because of the clumsy way I have done that and this is a learning experience for me.

I would give up most things in life if it meant something to someone else but I appreciate that's the easiest thing in the world to say sometimes

The issues raised here are something I am trying to navigate myself and I don't claim to be anywhere near that yet I just wanted to be a champion of someone I know is special and deserves to be recognised I never expected everyone to agree.

It does.

You are a social media butterfly and chat as and when you find something interesting

Stick around. Maybe become a rights hoarding dinosaur like the rest of us

I didn't read anything to that affect, I saw the post (albeit an older one now) and wanted to weigh in

I don't speak on anonymous forums unless it is something I want to comment on and feel that I have gathered enough knowledge to (of course we all have our own standards of this) but I don't have pre-conceived ideas of any online platform prior to using it and I will always own up to anything that has come across incorrectly and appreciate that today members of this community have given me the opportunity to do so and to also explain myself where perhaps I have misunderstood something.

I hope that makes sense

Just out of interest georgiapass, what were your expectations when you decided to post on MN? Do you have preconceived ideas from reading trans activist discourse on how MN is full of hate?

Or is it that this is genuinely the way you would interact with people on other anonymous forums?

You don't have to answer at all on this one. It is just my own interest.

Stop apologising. We don't ask it of you.

If you believe something is right, true then that's what you believe. Discuss it, don't apologise for it. That's what more you can do, should you choose to.

It isn't your words we don't like. It is the ideas and beliefes behind them. It is those, not the words themselves we disagree with. Sounds like semantics but as we are all fully capable of swearing, being very robust and less than 'at home with grandma' polite here, we do actually mean it.

I don't know if you have had any rights stripped from you. Your posting makes it seem as though you would happily give up some rights in order to make others happy. You can't do that for allwomen.

You came here to champion someone. To speak up for someone you saw being maligned. We can see that. And disagree with that whilst still holding your right to disagree as sacrosanct.

Which is why we debate and don't cancel here.

(I for one do not agree with the opinions of JK Rowling)

She is supportive of trans people - why in earth wouldn't you agree with her?

Or maybe you haven't actually read what she said?

Thanks for explaining - that was not intentional

Totally understand AFAB too - 'assumed' perhaps but I will not use the term again

I appreciate I am speaking to women of course and so if any of my actions were seen to bring women down then of course I wholeheartedly apologise - I didn't mean to cause upset to anyone I came into contact with today and I used the language in response to the topic rather than who I was speaking to.

and just ask you and others do you never think I have had right stripped?

Then talk to us about your views without trying to control anyone's speech.

People have reacted to your tone and even in your post before last you seem to be continuing to appeal to people to 'be kind'. It is a manipulative trans activist tactic and you will find that and other tactics will be pointed out to you each time you try to apply them.

But please do talk to us about your rights because that is what we are all here to discuss. The interactions of the rights for protecting females against sexist discrimination that we experience due to our sexed bodies and other groups.

I never said anyone had to simper to me - and the people you have mentioned I would not do that to them either because they have their own reasons (I for one do not agree with the opinions of JK Rowling)

And as for having it handed to me that's fine - I think some people have today and I do not contain a magic essence because believe me I don't think that highly of myself - I commented on a post concerning one person asking people to be kind in their comments concerning that person and I have apologised for where I have spoken incorrectly - I don't know what more I can do to be honest as you and others have spoken to me in the exact way you didn't like my words.

I can only apologise again - and just ask you and others do you never think I have had right stripped? Even if not I was not speaking for the people you mentioned but I never claimed to be.

@GeorgiaPass you aren't making mistakes in your language. We disagree with your points.

Debate is good. Especially in mixed groups, like this - again, you are assuming there are no men, NB or GNC people here. Or that we do not live with or care for people who are.

We don't really go with the AFAB either. As nobody is assigned anything, there being no choice to be made. Sex is recognised, seen at birth, usually ascertained via scan months prior. So you'll get challenged on that here.

Whether 'they' should be? What should be what? Threats? Explanations? Ignored? Welcomed? What?

As you are speaking to women - this is when you want to tell the people you are speaking to to be kind? That is the internalised misogyny we are trying to explain. And a view from anyone here on how that would received by a group of men, non binary or otherwise is not really relevant either. Go ask them. We don't know and don't presume to speak for them (unlike so very many people who claim to speak for women).

And being understanding it what got us here: when women face men in prison cells, in sports, in rape crisis centres, etc etc. When the voices of women are being drowned out by the shouts for inclusivity. When the word woman is being taken off all osrts of women services and goods. So no, we won't be understanding, or kind. Why should we?

You may say you would never want to lift one group by bringing down another but by telling us to be kind, get educated or shut up that is precisely what you were doing You have already told us you willundertsand but not change your mind or views... so you still are doing that!

I wonder if you would view this differently were I talking to a different group that included men and non binary or gender non conforming people?

Go ahead. You do that. You go on the reddit trans boards and other places like them and tell them all that they have to "Be kind" , specifically to females who DON'T simper agreeably whilst their rights are stripped from them. People like JK Rowling. People like Posie Parker. Tweet India Willoughby and tell India that they have to be kind to JK Rowling.

Go ahead. Maybe you contain some magic essence that will make them listen to you. I suspect you'll have your arse handed to you on a platter, but on you go.

GeorgiaPass

Do you genuinely not see the condescension in telling people 'be kind'?

How do YOU respond when someone who has come across as patronising and wanting to educate you says 'be kind'?

I am not sure what your intention here is, I join others in saying that you are most welcome, but the phrases you keep using here seem like they are straight out of the trans activist playbook on how to interact with people who hold views that do not match your own.

They are guaranteed to make people immediately distrustful.

I wonder if you would view this differently were I talking to a different group that included men and non binary or gender non conforming people?

Why is this relevant to us here and now? We are told to 'be kind' nearly every day on this board and it usually does follow some other order, slur or derrogation. Just like on twitter and other social media. Therefore, it is not relevant to us who any other group responds.

strange to be asked if it would. Do you normally tell others regularly to 'be kind'?

Hi Datun,

I understand your response absolutely and thank you for sharing I appreciate hearing from others.

My views were not to express this however, I am fully aware of the threats to women (I am assigned female at birth) and so, your explanations are correct of course, whether they should be is another issue because it's awful isn't it?

If you disagree with my use of the 'be kind' statement I apologise, just because I am speaking to women at the moment and therefore it does have connotations of the issues you have outlined - I wonder if you would view this differently were I talking to a different group that included men and non binary or gender non conforming people? I used the statement purely for the words themselves asking people to be understanding of the people at both sides of the original story. So I apologise again for any offence caused and want to say that I would never want to lift one group up by bringing down another

Thanks again

I appreciate that absolutely and it's like anything isn't it? If this were a different conversation on the forum I would be viewed differently again

I don't want anyone's rights to be erased - I never thought my comments would suggest that and that is why I am trying to apologise for my mistakes in language and how I have put things across

Inclusivity is difficult even with the best intentions I agree

@EishetChayil "next hydra-head of the men's rights movement"

The echidna has a 4 headed penis. Have the MRA got a mascot?

Stay with us here, Georgia.

Please know that not everything has to be "inclusive" and "validating". Some situations and settings are rightfully and needfully exclusive; it isn't always an act of unkindness to exclude. And not everything is "valid" in every situation. These are empty words that lobby groups are pushing as a form of silencing and forced compliance.

Here you'll find learned, informed, and compassionate women - straight, lesbian, bisexual. Women who have questioned their gender and the patriarchy for decades. Women who are fighting to make things better for the young women coming up behind us. We won't sit back and allow our long-fought rights to be erased by what is essentially the next hydra-head of the men's rights movement.

@OhHolyJesus -

That's a good point. The purity spiral seems to be quite unkind to those who find themselves at the end of it.

I really hope Freddie has thought about that because, after all, Freddie is female and no one ever gives a shiny shit about us.

Transparency about ten grand is probably a good idea.

@GeorgiaPass I'm also pleased you haven't posted and bolted - we see a lot of that round these parts.

I'm interested in your repeated apologies if you have hurt anyone's feelings or upset anyone - no one has said anything which suggests they are taking your comments personally. They aren't necessary, you haven't done any harm - we like that you are posting because we are keen to hear from you as a wide group.

I think it is striking that we are robust and welcome discussion - whereas the conversations I have had with people who believe in gender tend to dissolve because apparently, my disagreement is literal violence.

Interesting, isn't it?

Excellently explained as usual, Datun

The assumption is always by activists that women have insufficiently listened to and informed themselves about TQ+ people and their needs and views and voices, and that is the sole reason they will possibly have for disagreement.

You will never see an activist wonder if they have insufficiently listened to and informed themselves about women and women's needs and views and voices. That they have not yet sufficiently understood women's viewpoints and lived experiences. That perhaps if they educated themselves enough about women they'd understand.

It’s useful for TRAs to have some high profile biologically female trans people in the picture as it gives them legitimacy and diverts attention away from the fact it’s primarily a male rights movement.

YYY

@GeorgiaPass

The women on here have been discussing trans ideology for the best part of seven odd years. Most of them could write a bloody thesis about it. They've scrutinised all the studies, listened to rulings, read expert advice from gender clinics across the globe.

They've also read numerous narratives from trans people. And their partners. Lawyers here have studied the laws and various acts of Parliament, doctors here talk about their experience, and scientists and endocrinologist talk about the science. We've listened to what radio hosts say, who they have on their programmes, read newspapers, heard podcasts, reported on schools policies, and highlighted the work of lobby groups.

Two things:

1. The women here are probably more educated about this issue than anywhere else on the Internet.

2. The primary, most often used opposition to all the conclusions that they have reached is 'be kind'.

I can promise you, 'be kind' is a euphemism for comply, or else.

Similar to your if you can't be kind, then please shut up.

Women who do not shut up get issued horrific rape threats, sent death threats, they are arrested, they are visited by the police for wrong think, they are sent bomb threads, prevented from attending meetings, they employers are threatened, they are doxxed, their children are doxxed, they have been taken to court (unsuccessfully).

When sexual assault victims cannot access female counsellors, female prisoners are being housed with male rapists, and women everywhere having their hopes and dreams in sport completely dashed, the entire concept of complying out of kindness comes across as horrifically chilling.

Don't tell us we don't know what we're talking about.

Don't tell us to be kind or shut up.

Like others, I would recommend you stick around, though.