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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Transman Prinz Chiyo Gomes splits gay community: gay man accused of hate

311 replies

Shedbuilder · 30/03/2021 10:11

Prinz Chiyo is a transman who entered (and I'm told won, but can't confirm) the Mr Gay England competition last year:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/newsbeat-53936529

Chiyo has talked publicly about Chiyo's experience of sexual abuse from an early ago. Chiyo is also an icon among young girls who want to escape the burden of femininity and is celebrated on BBC's Newsbeat.

A gay man who tweets as Sheridan Sinclair recently wrote an article about Chiyo and why he objected to a someone who talks openly about their vagina and the fact they menstruate qualifying to compete in Mr Gay England. This has set off a Twitterstorm. Sheridan Sinclair has been forced to close his Twitter account and take down his article.

twitter.com/mrgayengland/status/1376101627959074821

Before he was shut down, Sheridan Sinclair pointed out that many gay men have spent large parts of their lives being told there's something wrong with them, that they should learn to love 'pussy', and that having Chiyo compete in Mr Gay England is homophobic.

Sheridan Sinclair has been reported to the police for hate crime and is expecting a visit from the rozzers this morning. Fair Cop, I hope he's been in touch with you.

OP posts:
GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 17:30

I totally agree there thank you for the information.

That is something that I think needs to be addressed as a whole - as someone said earlier I thought I had magic power or something to that affect I definitely don’t I just want to speak up on these issues and see where that takes me.

GeorgiaPass · 10/01/2022 17:26

@LondonWolf

I wish you’d stop the constant apologising and pledging to “do better”. Is this how The Youngsters have to communicate in order to avoid The SM Mob these days?
Sometimes yes !

We can be led to feel that our misunderstanding or understanding whichever way you want to look at it is incorrect sometimes (which of course is true in cases) my initial point here was just that communication is important and the need to do better should not always be expected as it isn’t needed

HaroldMeeker · 10/01/2022 17:22

@Datun

Yes inclusion seems to be some kind of magic bloody word. It really isn't.

Sexual orientation, that legally protected characteristic, is by its nature exclusionary. I'm heterosexual and I exclude all women from my dating pool.

We exclude tiny children from rides at Disney. We exclude men from going to class in a kindergarten. We exclude thousands of pupils from university on the basis of their exam results.

Human beings exclude all the bloody time.

Seems so bloody obvious, doesn't it?
ArabellaScott · 10/01/2022 17:20

Mumsnet is the biggest gathering of women in history. Never before have hundreds of thousands of women gathered in one place, exchanging ideas, sharing experiences. It's immensely powerful.

No shit. You could plug it in and fire up the National Grid on a good day.

Yo Georgia, welcome to Mumsnet. I hope you find it useful.

As for the rest of you, what kind of a viper pit do you call this?! You're all just a big bunch of naice softies. Away and hand in your T-Rex suits immediately. Bear Bear Bear

Helleofabore · 10/01/2022 17:18

Absolutely Artichokeleaves

Once you see the discrepancy between what is really 'inclusion' vs what is said to be inclusion by lobby groups with a bias, you can never unsee it.

Datun · 10/01/2022 17:10

Yes inclusion seems to be some kind of magic bloody word. It really isn't.

Sexual orientation, that legally protected characteristic, is by its nature exclusionary. I'm heterosexual and I exclude all women from my dating pool.

We exclude tiny children from rides at Disney. We exclude men from going to class in a kindergarten. We exclude thousands of pupils from university on the basis of their exam results.

Human beings exclude all the bloody time.

LondonWolf · 10/01/2022 16:59

I wish you’d stop the constant apologising and pledging to “do better”. Is this how The Youngsters have to communicate in order to avoid The SM Mob these days?

Artichokeleaves · 10/01/2022 16:53

Oh please don't 'do better'! There really is no need to subordinate yourself, no one healthy is going to require that of a woman.

You commented that inclusivity can be difficult, which implies that its a situation of discomfort that needs time to shake down. I've worked in and around inclusion policy for decades, there are times when people just need to get used to change and I've supported it. This is not it.

But from that perspective I'll say:

a) if it were just a prudish/lack of experience thing, just forcing people to be uncomfortable or get out is not inclusion. It's never worked, it makes things worse, not better. Inclusion, actual inclusion, only works when the the main group is not made so uncomfortable and disrupted that the entering person stands out a mile, everyone is angry with them and sees them as the source of the change, and there has been clear delineation of who matters and is favoured and who isn't. If I'd ever engineered a situation like that and caused a mess like this I'd have been in trouble for it and rightly so, that's not successful inclusion, it's causing a major mess. And anyone who knows anything about inclusion knows about the proactive aspect and will have thought ahead with some sensitivity to 'this is going to cause a huge, massive mess and a lot of bad feeling and make this situation worse than it is already'. '#fail.

b) Inclusion is emphatically not inclusion when the entry of one group forces the exclusion of another.

c) Protected characteristics are not a hierarchy, and there are nine, not one. Inclusion means accessibility for all people with those characteristics. Not shoving out some characteristics to favour another. That's another #fail

d) The first duty of female resources is to be inclusive of all females. Without exception. It's a female space. This cannot be achieved in a mixed sex space. Therefore that female space has ceased to be inclusive. Or accessible. It's another #fail

Whoever told you this was inclusive sadly knew nothing at all about real and actual inclusion.

What we're left with is situations like the Hampstead Pool -

three pools: Male only (policed and kept male only), mixed sex, and women's which is also mixed sex. There is no female only pool now.

TQ+ people have three separate pools they may choose from. Some female swimmers who were regulars at the pools now have no pools accessible to them at all.

Brighton Rape Crisis Service: three separate services. Male only, LGBTQ+ only, and womens which is a mixed sex service. TW have three different groups from which they can select their best and most comfortable resource for support in their time of crisis.

Female people are having to fight legally for their right to any service at all as they cannot access the one and only service for women which is mixed sex.

This is not inclusion. This is not even basically fair. What this is, is male supremacism in action. It's not ok. Females are not a lesser species who should sacrifice for males. They're really not. Giving up everything for others is not a healthy thing for women to believe they have to do - which is why all over MN you will find women supporting each other to have more self esteem, to have a more healthy and balanced view of who they are and their relationship with others.

HirplesWithHaggis · 10/01/2022 16:45

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

It has occurred to me that we are ruining our image, here.

Aren't we supposed be hideous vipers?

Do have a mooch around the threads, Georgia. Do you like podcasts? I have found some helpful.

I am honestly moved to tears by the genuine kindness being shown to Georgia this afternoon. What a fantastic conversation to read.

Must bustle off to the kitchen to get about my domestic duties now.

CompleteGinasaur · 10/01/2022 16:41

(And sorry again - forgot crappy punning ruins being a hideous viper...)

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/01/2022 16:39

Ba da boom and tish

[groans]

CompleteGinasaur · 10/01/2022 16:37

@CuriousaboutSamphire

Ye. I have had to shed my dinosaur name. I am no longer a raptor. I is ashamed Smile
Don't be ashamed, Samphire, isn't it cause for raptorous applause...?

I'll get my coat.

Sophoclesthefox · 10/01/2022 16:37

Phew. Thanks curious Grin

Order is restored.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/01/2022 16:36

ODFO Soph - atrocious fucking halfwit (or something)

Grin just in case!!!

Sophoclesthefox · 10/01/2022 16:35

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

It has occurred to me that we are ruining our image, here.

Aren't we supposed be hideous vipers?

Do have a mooch around the threads, Georgia. Do you like podcasts? I have found some helpful.

We really are!

Quick, somebody call someone an atrocious fucking halfwit or something.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/01/2022 16:35

Don't worry, @CuriousaboutSamphire. You'll be transitioning into a dragon, I expect.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/01/2022 16:31

Ye. I have had to shed my dinosaur name. I am no longer a raptor. I is ashamed Smile

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 10/01/2022 16:30

It has occurred to me that we are ruining our image, here.

Aren't we supposed be hideous vipers?

Do have a mooch around the threads, Georgia. Do you like podcasts? I have found some helpful.

Datun · 10/01/2022 16:30

Forgot the link!

g.co/kgs/MNwpWk

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/01/2022 16:29

if you do stick around, be aware there are many different views on this board.

Yep. Not only are the posters here all possessed of many and varied thoughts and perspectives, they don't even maintain 'friendships' here. You will see two posters being in absolute lockstep on one thread and hammering at each others ideology in another.

The important thing about this corner of the internet is that we each defend the rights and dignity of women and girls as freely and as determinedly as we can.

Datun · 10/01/2022 16:28

Yes, it's upsetting on a forum largely populated by women, and the feminist section in particular, seeing a woman who says she would so often forgo her own feelings for sake of others.

It's not that that's sometimes not a good thing. It's that women are socialised to think it's something only they should be doing, Georgia. Men are socialised to think the exact same thing, of course. That women will take second place.

This was an interesting program, Georgia, a few years ago on the TV. About the way little school children are socialised, almost from the word go. And how the adults who are doing it are completely unaware of how they are making it happen.

I don't know if it's still available, probably somewhere. It's worth a watch.

And I know this is all probably rather overwhelming, with people telling you to read this and watch that. But it's the sense of sorority, that wonderful world a poster above mentioned, which is responsible!

Helleofabore · 10/01/2022 16:24

Stick around. I think you might like it here.

I am going to add to this.

GEorgia if you do stick around, be aware there are many different views on this board. But if you read original sources and apply critical thinking and then ask questions if you are not sure why others may have interpreted the same thing you have read in that way... and then make up your own mind. This board will be valuable.

When there are two sides being argued, if one side is reliant on only emotive manipulation and mantras, it becomes easy to see when people are not in fact reading original sources, or applying critical thinking.

So, even if you don't agree with something, challenging with a thought out post is good because it will extend discussion.

I do hope you stick around.

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/01/2022 16:24

See Georgia ? Now you know what "be nice" means in our world.

Just be yourself.

Be a strong woman with boundaries.

littlbrowndog · 10/01/2022 16:22

@OhHolyJesus

I will do better

No need for that, just be yourself. I sense you don't get much of a chance to truly do this elsewhere. Maybe I'm wrong, I hope I am, otherwise the constant devotion to "do better, be better" must be exhausting.

Relax, be yourself. That will do just fine.

Yeah oh holy one I was thinking that as well

Just be yourself.

Be a strong woman with boundaries.

That’s what I have learned here

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 10/01/2022 16:22

I should say that was the case for me too. I was roundly admonished and felt really, really stupid. I remained angry about that for a day or two and then re-started my brain and begain to think about the questions I had been asked.

Quite a revelation.