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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Doesn't this BBC article about Tavistock mis somethingmis something Out?

39 replies

JellySlice · 30/03/2021 07:51

crisis at the Tavistock's child gender clinic www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56539466

Apparently the problem at the Tavi is that waiting times are too long.

OP posts:
MichelleofzeResistance · 30/03/2021 21:58

Mmn. I just read the article and came here to see if it had been noticed. This looks to me - especially considering it's been released by the BBC - like the beginnings of the arse covering narrative. And I have some sympathy for them. But it looks like they're going to go with poorly advised, should have stopped referrals and thought/planned better but kept trying to meet needs as best they could, and that's why we have situations like the Bell case now.

And I have a lot of sympathy with them. The report made clear the kind of pressure and difficulty holding boundaries that staff were under. The responsibility is on an NHS and system that let it happen despite repeated resignations, whistleblowing and reports, and some of that is due to the political hot potato it has been allowed to become.

R0wantrees · 30/03/2021 18:58

Bernadette Wren: on change
Interview by Glenn Gossling 2020, for In Mind magazine
(extract)
Bernadette Wren is a Consultant Clinical Psychologist and Systemic Family Therapist who worked at the Tavi for twenty five years as a clinician, trainer, supervisor and head of the Psychology discipline. In her time at the Tavi she was deeply involved with the GIDS team, working there initially in 1997-2000 and then from 2011 until her retirement in 2020. In that time she has seen significant change, but much continuity too, in the challenges to that service. “At the time I went back, even though the team was tiny, there were many differences between the clinicians in how they conceptualised the clinical and theoretical issues. Real tensions existed.” (continues)

"She joined GIDS in 1997 after qualifying at the Tavi as a family therapist on M6. She says, “After I qualified, there was a very part-time job going in the Gender Identity Service, then housed in a tiny office at the Portman. I think I was the fourth staff member. At the time it really wasn’t comfortable being at the Portman; we felt very marginalised.” In fact one of the early, very public, critiques of gender clinics came from within the Portman in 2002, when a group of adult clinicians wrote to the Telegraph strongly asserting the ‘delusional’ nature of transgender identities.

Bernadette takes a thoughtful view of this, saying, “The Portman then, as now, would have been the clinic taking on as adult patients people who were among the small number voicing regret for the surgeries they had undergone. But clinicians tended to build their whole understanding of trans identities on working with that group of patients. In GIDS, meeting very young people, we saw things differently.”

In 1995 Domenico de Ceglie set out the therapeutic aims and values for GIDS by which the service still abides. These include the ‘unconditional acceptance and respect’ for young people’s expression of their gender identity. “Those therapeutic aims still represent the core values of the service – they’re Domenico’s lasting legacy,” says Bernadette. “He grasped that if you want to have a genuine engagement with young people you have to take very seriously what they feel and what they say.” And she adds: “if you want to know how GIDS still operates, read Domenico’s aims.” (continues)
100years.tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/bernadette-wren-on-change/?v=79cba1185463

R0wantrees · 30/03/2021 18:56

GIDS statement "Our Gender Identity Development Service
4 November 2018
(extract)
The GIDS was founded in 1989 and is one of the longest standing services for gender diverse children and young people in the world. Domenico Di Ceglie, who founded the service, wrote a set of therapeutic aims which we still abide by today. This includes the unconditional acceptance and respect for young people’s gender identity. We do not therefore take a view regarding the outcome of an individual’s gender identity development: rather, our focus is to provide a space for exploration of gender, to ameliorate any negative impacts on general development and to work with young people to think through all the options open to them. These principles remain central to the delivery of the service." (continues)
tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/about-us/news/stories/our-gender-identity-development-service/

Dominico Di Ceglie paper, 'Castaway's Corner' published Clin Child Psychol Psychiatry 2002 7: 487 describes the setting up of Tavistock GIDS service for children and Mermaids parent support group and is worth reading.

Di Ceglie wrote the service specifications of GIDS which they still follow. He also remains a member of the board there.

Within the principles that he asserted is the belief that children have a 'gender identity'.

The 'first case' which piqued his interest was a distressed teenage girl. Whether she had undiagnosed ASD / ADHD, had been subjected to abuse or was a lesbian no-one will know. Note how he took her case despite having no relevant experience or knowledge because he thought it would be good training opportunity and it piqued his curiosity.
www.researchgate.net/publication/270564195_Castaway%27s_Corner

One of Di Ceglie's next patients (a young boy) would likely have being more appropriately supported by an experienced Child Protection Social Worker or play therapist

(extract)
"I used to see this 7-year-old boy after school as my last case. He made few demands of me as his therapist. This seemed to be the perfect patient to have at the end of a hard day. As soon as he walked in the room he would start to play with the dolls’ house, placing all the dolls, which I had provided, in the little rooms apparently totally ignoring me and tidying up everything near the end of the session. The problem started when I asked him what he was playing. He came up with very elaborate fantasies on how all the children in the house were going to be killed by various means, including the use of poisonous gas released by a cylinder. I was shocked to find out that so much was going on in his mind in spite of the mild appearances of his behaviour. Within a Kleinian perspective (Klein, 1975), if the dolls’ house represented the body of the mother or his relationship with the mother there was very little of a benevolent nature going on there. So much for the ‘blissful’ relationship!" (continues)

"During the life of the service, staff and users have contributed creatively to its development. For instance, a mother of a child with gender identity disorders involved in a dispute over contact with her ex-partner, asked me during a court break if she could meet other parents facing similar issues. This was the start of a new development – the running of a group for parents of children with gender problems. This group became an important feature of our service and then led to the formation of a self-help organization called ‘Mermaids’. Mermaids had been the focus of discussion in one of the parents’ groups in an attempt to understand the fascination that some children have for these mythical creatures. ‘Mermaids’ is a complementary organization to our service, which offers the kind of help and support that we, as professionals, cannot. Their social activities and networks provide, in my view, a space within society in which children and teenagers with unusual gender development can feel accepted. Their social isolation is reduced and they can start to feel part of a community"

NecessaryScene1 · 30/03/2021 13:10

But I think it's a shame it doesn't mention the staff's own concerns about gay and autistic children being referred, as these concerns are now on record I think?

Well, the same reporters have covered it before, and at least some of those articles+programmes are linked from that one.

But yes, maybe it's time they did another refresher covering the entire topic.

WendyTestaburger · 30/03/2021 13:01

It is extremely neutral which is helpful in reaching wider audiences. But I think it's a shame it doesn't mention the staff's own concerns about gay and autistic children being referred, as these concerns are now on record I think?

Melroses · 30/03/2021 11:29

A monster has been created and our children are just cannon fodder to feed it.

< nods sagely >

Clymene · 30/03/2021 11:26

I dunno - I think that article is fairly damning. They had a report in 2015 which: "It argued the service was "facing a crisis of capacity" to deal with an ever-increasing demand and strikingly it should "take the courageous and realistic action of capping the numbers of referrals immediately".

And they did nothing. They continued to take referrals from inappropriate sources - charities and youth groups, schools and social workers - none of whom have any medical or diagnostic training whatsoever. And because numbers exploded from 97 to over 1,500 in 5 years "We do not have the resources to offer therapy,".

Now there are nearly 5,000 children waiting 2 years for a service which does not have the resources to offer therapy and which can no longer prescribe puberty blockers to new patients. New patients who have been told that they've been born in the wrong body and that they will be suicidal if they don't have immediate treatment.

A monster has been created and our children are just cannon fodder to feed it.

2old4thissite · 30/03/2021 10:40

Neutral article which is good.
Uses the phrase 'perceived' mismatch between biological sex and gender identity.Smile
Missed out-
The gigantic elephants in the room which are the KB case and why so many drs left &/or felt unable to speak out.
Also, apparently it's autism awareness week (I was unaware too until Twitter today!) and it's a shame that it doesn't talk about autism (particularly amongst girls) in the list of accompanying 'issues')

NecessaryScene1 · 30/03/2021 08:21

Ah, had to go back and check the award - they were nominated, but didn't win. Sky's Covid coverage beat them. Envy

NecessaryScene1 · 30/03/2021 08:16

If it misses something out, it will likely be because it's in one of Hannah Barnes' many other Tavistock reports.

Follow the links to previous reports in the article.

Her Newsnight team has been doing sterling work here, and is up for an award for it.

NotBadConsidering · 30/03/2021 08:15

The new scores did not impact on numbers. Referrals - which could come from GPs, schools, social workers, and even some charities and youth groups - exploded in 2015-16 at their fastest rate yet: more than doubling from the previous year to 1,419.

Which charities?Hmm

This for me is the biggest problem. If many of these children had been seen by experienced paediatricians, mental health workers or healthcare professionals without a gender-affirming bias, the situation would be a lot different. Instead, a school or charity Hmm hears “gender! Trans!” and the children are set on a pathway from which many can’t return.

You should only be able to be referred to a gender clinic if an experienced child psychiatrist or paediatrician thinks it’s the best option never.

334bu · 30/03/2021 08:08

BBC News - The crisis at the Tavistock's child gender clinic

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56539466

donquixotedelamancha · 30/03/2021 08:08

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56539466

WarOnWomen · 30/03/2021 07:56

Link not working.

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