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Zucker study:A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder

42 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/03/2021 13:36

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full (open access)

Abstract:

This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors. Multinomial logistic regression examined predictors of outcome for the biphilic/androphilic persisters and the gynephilic desisters, with the biphilic/androphilic desisters as the reference group. Compared to the reference group, the biphilic/androphilic persisters tended to be older at the time of the assessment in childhood, were from a lower social class background, and, on a dimensional composite of sex-typed behavior in childhood were more gender-variant. The biphilic/androphilic desisters were more gender-variant compared to the gynephilic desisters. Boys clinic-referred for gender identity concerns in childhood had a high rate of desistance and a high rate of a biphilic/androphilic sexual orientation. The implications of the data for current models of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children are discussed.

OP posts:
Anovaneway · 29/03/2021 17:52

I agree with you Necessary but we would be ostracised and condemned by many for such reasoning.

so many feminists seem to believe that there are few, if any, inbuilt differences

Some. I suspect said feminists are more interested in ‘saving the children’ than in any discussion of this nature.

Hibari · 29/03/2021 17:44

Zucker's methodology is straight up conversion therapy.

Denial of identity, enforcement of stereotypes and norms and is flat abusive.

I see people say things like "let kids be kids," and "let kids do what they want," "let kids play with the toys they want." Zucker's whole premise is not doing that. It's about forcing kids to do things they don't want. Taking their toys away. Punishing them for liking the "wrong," thing and encouraging them to like the "right," thing.

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 29/03/2021 17:15

90% desist? Jesus wept.

When will there be a public enquiry into what has been going on in the gender clinics?

Thingybob · 29/03/2021 16:55

Obviously many behaviour traits don't flip with homosexuality, but I think enough do often enough that various stereotypes about gays and lesbians do hold true.

That leads to an acknowledgement that there are some innate male and female behaviours and that some sex based stereotypes also hold true.

I'm fine with accepting that but so many feminists seem to believe that there are few, if any, inbuilt differences between the sexes.

NecessaryScene1 · 29/03/2021 16:22

Why is cross gender behaviour associated with homosexuality? Does one always predate the other and is it developmental in some way? Is it cultural? Is it biological?

"Gender behaviour" or "sex role" is a real thing in animals. Animals of different sexes do behave differently. A certain proportion of humans' sex-typical behaviour will come from their animal nature, rather than being cultural.

And what's the biggest difference between in "sex role" between the sexes? Which sex they're attracted to. And that seems to have little or no cultural component.

So if someone is homosexual, then the biggest part of their "sex role" is cross-sex. It surely then is very likely that whatever genetic/developmental trigger flipped that is likely to have flipped some other sex-typical behaviour. It would be odd if sexuality was the only thing flipped, would it not?

(I've always maintained that if "ladybrain" was a thing, then its primary indicator would be being attracted to males, so gay men have it and lesbians don't. But I don't think it's a very useful way of looking at things.)

Obviously many behaviour traits don't flip with homosexuality, but I think enough do often enough that various stereotypes about gays and lesbians do hold true. And those things being picked up in childhood - the "ladybrain" or "boybrain" - are now being interpreted as "trans" rather than "gay". As Helen Joyce said - "they're sterilising gay kids".

Anovaneway · 29/03/2021 16:03

It would be interesting to follow them up again next year, 20 years later than the mean follow up year. When the mean age would be 40.

Some gay people aren’t going to like this as it potentially pathologises pre gay behaviour, framing it as a disorder.

Also it very strongly links stereotypical cross gender behaviour with homosexuality. The cross gender behaviours seem to emerge before sexual development. We’ve always known that of course but it’s problematic for many. I just find it interesting.

Why is cross gender behaviour associated with homosexuality? Does one always predate the other and is it developmental in some way? Is it cultural? Is it biological?

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 29/03/2021 15:26

I do wonder if we're going to look back on this as a period of mass delusion.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 29/03/2021 15:23

Social hysteria driven by funding from organisations & individuals set to benefit?

highame · 29/03/2021 15:16

I wonder why there has been such a push to have the affirmation model everywhere, without any evidence that this is a good process. What is to be gained and why haven't very serious questions been asked.

loveyouradvice · 29/03/2021 15:04

thank you for posting this.... interesting that it tallies almost precisely with the figure of 90% desist ....

NonnyMouse1337 · 29/03/2021 14:49

Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters.

Very interesting results when clinics are not blindly 'affirming' children at the behest of lobby groups.

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 29/03/2021 14:25

Blimey

TheRabbitOfCaerbannog · 29/03/2021 14:24

@CongealedCrags

Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters.

That says a lot.

Nearly 90%
PopperUppleton · 29/03/2021 14:23

I'm not brilliant at reading the big words, but does that mean in that study most of the boys were gay or bi?

Thingybob · 29/03/2021 14:16

Thank-you for linking OP. I haven't read it all yet but it's good to see research that casts doubt on the wisdom of social transition.

CongealedCrags · 29/03/2021 13:41

Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters.

That says a lot.

Original poster
ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 29/03/2021 13:40

Zucker twitter thread on paper
twitter.com/ZUCKERKJ/status/1376412138227503104?s=19

Richard Green, an early mentor of mine, once said "The name of the game is follow-up." This particular paper is a long time coming, sitting around in my own queue for way too long. I pen some of my own thoughts about the paper here.

  1. I was 24 years old when the first child patient was assessed in 1975. I am 70 now. To be sure, a different kind of persistence...
  1. I think that this is the best follow-up study to date in terms of the sample size and the methods of assessment. It does, of course, have its flaws, but I think that the data speak for themselves.
  1. I hope you enjoy some of the footnotes.
  1. This will probably be the last follow-up study in the literature that tracks longer-term psychosexual development of children (i.e., those seen clinically for the first time between the ages of 3-12 years) during an era where "treatment"when there was treatmentcame in a...

variety of shapes and forms. But the one type of "treatment" (with one exception) that these children did not receive was what is now known as pre-pubertal social transition. Thus, this follow-up study can be used as a comparative benchmark with regard to the persistence and...

desistance of gender dysphoria for any new follow-up studies that look at persistence and desistance among children who socially transitioned prior to puberty. I have argued elsewhere (Zucker, 2018) and in the Discussion that pre-pubertal social transition (where it is...

implemented by parents, on their own, without any clinical input from "professionals" or at the suggestion of professionals, or in combination is a form of psychosocial treatment of gender dysphoria...just of a very different kind.

  1. In contemporary times, there is now much more focus (and one sees this on Twitter and other social media outlets all the time) on adolescents with gender dysphoria, particularly those with what Littman (2018) has termed "rapid-onset gender dysphoria." I see these ...

adolescents all the time now in my clinical practice. My own perspective is that I do not think that the follow-up studies such as this one (with regard to persistence and desistance) speak directly to this new cohort of adolescent patients. If, indeed, these new adolescent...

patients did not...have gender dysphoriaor even marked gender-variant behavior in childhoodthey would have never been seen clinically at younger ages. The developmental course of rapid-onset gender dysphoria needs to be studied in its own right.

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