Foucault

Stephen Frears who directed Prick Up Your Ears, and Alan Bennett, and John Lahr. . . .are all admirable in their fields, etc but they come over as totally blind to some of the realities. I really don't think they see it

That is the feeling I get from a lot of prominent gay men, to be honest.

Oscar Wilde, indeed.

I felt very mixed about Orton's diaries. Well written, and a very interesting set of glimpses into a place and time. But sex with underage boys to one side for a moment, I came away from them feeling that Orton was a grubby sex-addict. His comments about women "having no use" also depressing.

Stephen Frears who directed Prick Up Your Ears, and Alan Bennett, and John Lahr. . . .are all admirable in their fields, etc but they come over as totally blind to some of the realities. I really don't think they see it.

In fact so much of what I grew up thinking was arty, decadent and cool now looks like cover for abusers, really awful men (and occasionally women too) using the Arts as a glossy cover for predatory, controlling and shitty behaviour to women and young people.

Will this have any impact? I see people who would probably consider themselves on the Left praising William Burroughs. They think murdering his wife and then fleeing to Tangier to fuck boys adds to his 'cool' - the fawning Wikipedia page includes a quote that this woman murdering, child abusing, right wing, gun and knife obsessed rich kid was 'providing gay liberation with a delicious edge'. It now feels like umbrella terms like 'Queer' (prior to Queer Theory, the word's most famous literary use was as the title of a Burroughs novel) are being used in the way abusers previously used the church, BBC, charities or political parties to provide them with cover and shelter, silencing others because exposure of the bad apples will now taint everyone.

Interesting to read your post, Turquoise. I also had a Joe Orton phase a few years ago - well, quite a long time ago, if I'm honest. It was back in the 80s! But I read the diaries, the John Lahr biography, the plays and loved them - particularly the diaries. And Prick Up Your Ears became one of my favourite films.

But you're right. The stuff about young boys in Morocco is massively uncomfortable. You can't justify it. And I remember at the time discussing Orton with an older colleague and even then he said he disliked Orton because he had sex with boys.

And then there's Oscar Wilde. Another difficult one.

MF, not MC

Sorman says he regrets not having reported Foucault to police at the time or denounced him in the press, calling his behaviour “ignoble” and “extremely morally ugly”.

As someone who went to a school where one particular teacher's pemchant for young boys was an open secret that none of the other staff ever thought to do a damned thing about, I can't say I'm terribly impressed by these "regrets" after the fact.

The problem with leaking what is effectively gossip like this so long after MC's death is that it will be very difficult to prove. Short of the boys concerned coming forward and describing what happened with some degree of consistency, I don't know how anyone would do that. Maybe I'm wrong and Sorman has well documented evidence to back up his claims. I hope so. But I can't say I have a lot of time for him failing to do anything about it when it could have been properly investigated and dealt with, and then claiming to be so outraged now that it can't.

However with paedophilia being the highly emotive subject that it is, most people will just judge MC guilty anyway. Eg this thread.

Yes and they like the easy ride and the glamour of these annihilation theories. Have to keep the students interested and the cash coming in, even if they end up being unemployable (except in tech of course)

Our universities are steeped in queer theory.

whoops 'conversion therapy' meant the trans idea. I understand the gay conversion need to be legislated against but am unsure why specifics are needed for trans

There are periods where paedophiles infiltrate mainstream (or at least try), whilst condemnations and police actions are going on. I have a feeling and I think many on this board will agree, that Silicone Valley (not necessarily the geographical place but - refer to Aimee C) will show itself to be a breading ground in an attempted take over, (look at other places) to influence and break down barriers. The concern should be in the move to prevent 'conversion therapy' which I can only think refers to children - is this the first safeguarding stage to overcome. Do we then move on to a child's right to agree to harmful medication etc and this is why the Bell case needs to be diluted (JM's recent attempt using the Family court) and how far is the step to then arguing that the child can consult to sex.

Does academia point out that each philosophy must always be looked at through the lens of its distasteful proponents. It seems to be clear though, that young people still know about their own personal safety and the idea that children could be socialised to accept sex at very young ages seems beyond belief

This is not a surprise to anyone who has read any Focault. He actively campaigned for acceptance of pedophiles. There are a lot of articles which use his theory to talk about a moral panic about child abuse and general paeodphile apology but I doubt he will be cancelled.

Dr Em has written a lot about this.

mobile.twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/1376480576996315140

Latin! or Tobacco and Boys is a play by Stephen Fry, written in 1979 It was first performed at 'The Playroom', an L-shaped space in St Edwards Passage that belonged to Corpus Christi College, Cambridge. It is about life at the fictional Chartham Park Preparatory School For Boys, a prep school in England, and ends up in Morocco, via a homosexual relationship between a teacher and a 13-year-old student

The title derives from Christopher Marlowe's claim, reported by Richard Baines, that "All they that love not Tobacco and Boys are fools".

Revolting.

I went through a Joe Orton phase a few years ago. Very ascerbic plays coming down hard on hypocrisy, etc. For those who don't know, he was a young gay playwright in the 1960s who was very much the rage until 1967 when he was murdered by his long-term partner Ken Halliwell who then killed himself.

Gay, fine. Consensual relationships with other adult men, fine. (Illegal in England until 1967, of course. But morally I don't see an issue.) What is NOT fine is that Orton and Halliwell went to Morocco and had sex with teenage boys. There's a film about Orton and Halliwell, Prick Up Your Ears, made in 1987, with a screenplay by Alan Bennett. Good film for the most part but it depicts the Moroccan trip as a joyous liberating escapade. I'd like to think that if a film about Orton was made now, that aspect of his life would be approached far more critically. But seeing the piece on Foucalt, maybe not.

Grim.

Tunisia and Morocco have long been favoured by those with designs on children: www.vice.com/en/article/dpwg9w/is-morocco-replacing-southeast-asia-as-a-haven-for-european-paedophiles

Tunisia and Morocco have long been favoured by those with designs on children.

Oscar Wilde and Andre Gide also abused boys in (?Tunisia). Gide wrote openly about it.

Great thread from Allison but isn't it from last May? The date suggests so?
So not a direct response if i understand correctly?

Yes I couldn't get over the phrase "there he would make love"
FFS it's rape

I always felt concerned about the disruption of boundaries for disruption's sake. Some boundaries are important.

Thank you for the archive version. I will post it to the break it down thread unless it is already there.

I find it really disheartening that the situation with the men and women who were victims of Foucault and the other proponents of ‘sexual freedom’ for children seemed to be the victim of the 24 hour news cycle recently.

It need so much sunlight. To ensure all those affected have their voices heard. Including those victims of the negligence bred into the system for dealing with rape, incest and assault. Such as the thousands of university students (past and present) etc.

It also shows exactly the repercussions of lowering boundaries.

I do want to point out though, it was on FWR that I learned about Foucault’s background 18 months ago. I remember telling my friends about how problematic queer theory was because of it.