Suicide rate of those who have undergone reassignment

What makes my trans child feel suicidal is not the gender dysphoria but the hideous transphobic attitudes outwardly expressed by so many people now.

The persistence will often be there over a period of years. It's generally coupled with a high level of distress such as acute anxiety and depression as the body develops in a way which caused further distress or in non supportive families when we are encouraged or forced to conform to stereotypical behaviours and presentations often associated with a particular sex

Isn't this the crux of the issue, though: being, or feeling forced to conform to stereotypical behaviours and presentations?

That would indeed constitute a non supportive environment for any child, and particularly for a sensitive child; and furthermore the parental compulsions need not even be aggressively overt, bu simply implicitly expected.

However, it would not necessarily be a non -supportive environment where the parent/s simply question the trans 'narrative'.Lots of parents here, for example, have expressed, and spoken of, their openness and encouragement towards non -conforming gendered expressions in their children.

You say several times that trans people are rare; how rare? ("that particular persistence and insistence about a trans identity over such a long period of time is not at all common" for instance.)

As many as 2-500,000 in the UK?

You are right though that many children are non conforming or suffer distress at bodily changes for other reasons but, that particular persistence and insistence about a trans identity over such a long period of time is not at all common and makes us stand out from those who display limited variant behaviours. The numbers of children accessing trans health care through the Tavistock and UCH compared to the number of referrals that result in no further treatment reflects that this persistence is something unique in a tiny number of people.

Aside from all that, I'm often interested to know why some people believe we can be trans adults but not trans children almost as if they can place an 18 rated certificate on a well documented medical condition?

I can only talk about my experience and what I observe in others but, I'm sure somebody involved in the care of trans children may be open to explaining to you how they come to that differential diagnosis.

So... If being trans isn't a mental health issue that causes considerable distress, why should children be given puberty blockers and cross sex hormones that cause infertility and cancer, to stop them committing suicide in droves?

Is it a mental health and physical health issue or not?

I do unquestionably accept that there is such a thing as a trans child. I have no other choice other than to form that opinion because I was one.

However, that is a long way from saying that all children who suffer distress at the disconnect they feel between their biological sex and how they see themselves are trans.

I think the 'born in the wrong body' saying is an easier way for a young person to put into words how they feel. It does feel that way at times but I don't actually think it's a literal belief that many hold.

You've said a lot here about what a trans child isn't, but it tells us nothing about what distinguishes a 'trans child' from a child who is suffering distress about their sex for some other reason.

What is a trans child? The diagnostic criteria are mainly about stereotypes, so this doesn't tell us anything about how anyone could diagnose transness in a child.

What is it about this group of children which makes them need to be made into medical patients for life requiring multiple surgical procedures and lifelong treatment with opposite sex hormones? What are the distinguishing features of these children which makes them 'trans'?

However, that is a long way from saying that all children who suffer distress at the disconnect they feel between their biological sex and how they see themselves are trans. That seems to be bourne out in the number of referrals that actually result in treatment and the fact that even the number of referrals, despite recent increases are still a tiny proportion of the UK adolescent population. Something like 99.92% of UK children aren't ever referred to a gender clinic meaning that the distress is still very rare and a diagnosis proportionally almost non existent. With a conservatively estimated prevalence of 0.3% of people being trans, I would have thought each 700,000 or so live births every year would result in about 2330 being diagnosed as trans. As far as I am aware, actual diagnoses are much lower than that. I think the Daily Hate did an expose in the last couple of years to say the number of children referred for blockers since 2011 was around 800. A very alarmist report but proportionally a tiny amount. You'd probably be able to dig it out with a Google search.

I think the 'born in the wrong body' saying is an easier way for a young person to put into words how they feel. It does feel that way at times but I don't actually think it's a literal belief that many hold.

I'm really genuinely sorry if that's something you don't like or agree with but, that's how I feel

You don't have to apologise for mere disagreement.

I get it that you have your own perspective based on your own experience, and on your own feelings.

But feelings are not always the best long term guide to action. Certainly not in the case of children.

The judges in the Bell case obviously disagreed with me but, I'd take a lot of convincing that they had the best interests of those children at heart too

How you determine 'long term best interest' will obviously depend on factors such as one's ideological standpoint; as well as on how closely one adheres to or rejects safeguarding practices.

If you unquestionably accept that there is a such a thing as a 'trans child' ( meaning a child who has somehow been born in the 'wrong body'), as opposed to a child who is struggling or in distress, then your thoughts and actions will naturally lead on from there.

Sorry. That was @Scepticaltank

Absolutely! The amount of outrage and the demanding behaviour for my back up! And what really pisses me off was that it was all emotion with no facts to back up the claims.

We advocate for the rights of lesbian and gay young people to grow up as lesbian or gay. We advocate for the rights of autistic children and those with mental health problems or background trauma to receive proper therapeutic care, not a ‘diagnosis’ that they are really the opposite sex. All children and young people deserve treatment based on clinical evidence, not ideology

Transgender Trend is the leading organisation in the call for evidence-based healthcare for children and young people suffering gender dysphoria and for factual, science-based teaching in schools. Our expertise was acknowledged recently when we were granted permission by the High Court to intervene in the Keira Bell v Tavistock & Portman NHS Trust judicial review

Established in 2015, Transgender Trend has led the way in advocating for the rights of children to reject gender stereotypes and be who they really are without discrimination, labelling or medical intervention to ‘fix’ them

We believe all children have the right to go through puberty and reach adulthood with their fertility intact and that this is a fundamental human right

We believe that children with gender dysphoria deserve evidence-based treatment and have a right to the same duty of care as any other child

As for Trangender Trend, I personally find it quite difficult to find assurance that they have the best interests of trans children at heart. That's just my opinion, it's unlikely to change but I'm sure there are others

Transgender Trend comprise parents and professionals who work with children. I can absolutely assure you they do have the best long term interests of children at heart. Absolutely at heart!

[quote OldCrone]I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act.

When you say 'trans child', what do you mean exactly? What makes a child 'trans'?

Some people are suggesting that very young (pre-school) children can be 'trans'. Do you agree with this?

The diagnostic criteria for trans children appear to be mostly based on stereotypes. Do you think it is appropriate to set children on a lifelong medical pathway because they don't conform to stereotypes?

abdominalkey.com/the-dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria-for-gender-dysphoria/[/quote]
I suppose when I say trans child, I really mean an adolescent on a trans health care pathway. But, do I think some children will benefit from trans healthcare? As a proportion of about 12.5 million under 18's not many, but yes, I think some will. Do I think pre pubescent children can have an awareness of being trans. From my own experience, yes. Whether they have the language to articulate it or live in a supportive environment that will allow them to flourish is a different matter. My parents used to ask why I couldn't just be gay, we haven't spoken in many years and that situation is not going to change.

However, as far as I am aware the diagnostic criteria requires puberty to have started, I think they refer to it as tanned stage 2 (I could be so g) so it's highly unlikely in the UK at least that a pre pubescent child will be allowed to do anything more than social aspects that make them feel comfortable. If those social changes make them comfortable in their own skin, I look at it as a positive thing. Why force a child to be unhappy, it doesn't make sense?

When you say a life long medical pathway, I'm not quite sure we sing from the same hymn sheet. From personal experience, I wouldn't call a patch change twice a week and a trip to the nurse once a year for bloods, cholesterol and a BP check being on a life long medical pathway. It's probably quite handy as a gauge of my general health so, again that's positive.

For a small minority of children the world over, I do think trans healthcare during adolescence is on balance beneficial. Some quite invasive surgeries during adulthood can be avoided this way.

Does that mean to say that there won't be misdiagnosis and consequent de-transitions? Of course not, but there are misdiagnosis prevalent in many serious health care settings so it's important to ensure the rate is low, lessons are learnt and those affected are adequately supported. I find important to distinguish between desistors and de-transitioners though. Seeing as the numbers referred are in the thousands but the numbers treated in the hundreds I think anyone using desistance prior to diagnosis rates to curtail healthcare is possibly acting in poor faith. I certainly wouldn't advocate for the cessation of a treatment that appears on the whole to be beneficial to most. It seems a bit like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Of course, it's only my opinion, I'm not involved in healthcare, nor do I personally know any trans children. So, as I've mentioned before, I'm content to leave these things to the child, their parents/guardians and the clinicians involved in their care. Me sticking my size 8's in to the mix is not very likely to improve an already difficult time for a child and their family. I am really pleased though that there are parents out there who are happy to let their children find comfort, such love and care in the face of much intolerance is a really positive thing.

I think perhaps what Transgender Trend has at heart is the interests of children who are not actually trans, but have for whatever reason come to think that all problems they have might be "solved" by determining that they are trans and insisting that only by being treated with puberty blockers and offered gender-altering surgery can they find any relief from being adolescent -- a time at which every single person I knew of either sex was not particularly happy about their pubertal development and their new body.

It's the people for whom treatment as trans is not a panacea who are the focus of TransTrend's attention, I suspect.

I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act.

When you say 'trans child', what do you mean exactly? What makes a child 'trans'?

Some people are suggesting that very young (pre-school) children can be 'trans'. Do you agree with this?

The diagnostic criteria for trans children appear to be mostly based on stereotypes. Do you think it is appropriate to set children on a lifelong medical pathway because they don't conform to stereotypes?

abdominalkey.com/the-dsm-5-diagnostic-criteria-for-gender-dysphoria/

[quote Justhadathought]I'm given to thinking it's a bit of an urban myth really that there is any large scale feeling amongst today's transitioners, either old or young that it's transpbobic

Well that is certainly what whistleblowers and others who have worked in GIDS services ( including the Tavistock) have reported. that positive affirmation is the model pursued, and that any attempt to investigate reasons and causes is very much frowned upon.

"Over the last two years a number of clinicians have resigned from the Tavistock Gender Identity Development Service on grounds of conscience. Five shared their concerns with the Sunday Times. Their testimony suggests that pre-existing mental health problems in young people with gender problems may be overlooked and left untreated. They revealed that GIDS did not sufficiently explore whether children with gender dysphoria might grow up to be gay. Worryingly, a number of children adopted a transgender identity after homophobic bullying"

"The experimental ‘affirmation’ approach advocated by these groups fails to take into account the fluid and changing nature of immature and developing identities, together with the susceptibility of children and young people to suggestion and influence from online sources as well as the peer group and trusted adults in positions of authority. The established global model of care for children with gender dysphoria is a ‘watch and wait’ approach which does not steer a child towards any pre-determined outcome, but recognises developmental change as an intrinsic part of childhood and adolescence" : www.transgendertrend.com/current-evidence/[/quote]
I quite like the idea that children and adolescents are listened to and have their distress taken seriously. If I'd had that luxury during my teens and early 20's life may have been a bit less distressing. I'm not a believer in the idea that doing nothing for a trans child / adolescent is a neutral act. My distress was a product of doing nothing.

As for the Tavistock clinic, I've got to be honest, if I had a trans child they wouldn't be going anywhere near the place. I think a culture of empire building there has bred incompetence. I would do my utmost to ensure that they would be going private in a country where trans children aren't used as a political football. But, it's all hypothetical because I don't have a trans child so, I'm happy for their treatment to be a matter for them, their parents/guardians and the clinicians involved in their care. There's some reasonably good blogs around from parents who are supportive of their trans children, I think their support and love for those children is really uplifting.

As for Trangender Trend, I personally find it quite difficult to find assurance that they have the best interests of trans children at heart. That's just my opinion, it's unlikely to change but I'm sure there are others.

You are right, the stigma around mental health has long been a cause for concern and I'd love nothing more than to see the government have a concerted push on reducing that stigma. We have come a long way in recent years but there is still so much to do.

With regards to being trans, the WHO determined that from 2022 when ICD 11 becomes the go to resource for diagnosing trans people, it will no longer be classified as a mental disorder. There is a link to it above, I'm not sure if I've entered it right but you can copy and paste it if not. I think that is a good thing as it could be the first step of a long process to the public in general viewing trans people as just a variation of the human condition. You only have to see how far society has come with other intolerances over the years. Granted, it's never likely to be common but, I'm hopeful for a day when trans people and our medical treatment raise no more issue than the colour of your eyes with regards to stigma.

If you really do think that it should still be classed as a mental disorder for diagnostic purposes though, I'd imagine there is an address somewhere in the ICD 11 where you can send feed back and suggestions to the WHO. Personally, I don't agree but a difference of opinion is healthy.

What Iran trope? Here's an article from the Economist. I fail to see how this is a 'trope'. This is happening to gay people

Yes, a trope is a cliche, an embellishment for the purposes of argument.