Are there any anti-abortion groups that are pro-trans?

Ireland was very much pro trans, allowing self-ID whilst abortion was still illegal.

Well, pretty much the entire US republican party opposes both.

www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2021/01/29/state-lawmakers-tackle-bills-trans-rights-abortion-voting/4293500001/

This is a website about the legislation that has gone unchanged and it details how many years women could go to prison for, for having a termination.

www.v4c.mt/abortion-law

But hey! Malta has got Self-ID!

This is an interesting read about people and politicians being pro-trans and anti-abortion in Malta.

twitter.com/ForwomenScot/status/1376209983910649857?s=19

That makes no sense whatsoever.

Gay people did not have the same civil right to marry as everyone else. Like women did not have the same civil right to vote as everyone else.

What civil rights do trans people in the UK not have that everyone else has?

In the US there are civil rights differences. Which rightfully are being sorted out.

Would really appreciate some coherent points and adult debate instead of the endless mindless chucking of random abuse to anyone you don't agree with. If you don't agree, address it, disprove it. Name calling just makes it look like you have nothing better.

It was used against gay people for decades. "Gay people already have the same rights as everyone else. If they want to get married, they can marry someone of the opposite sex".

People like you genuinely lower the quality of discourse to the point that it's untenable. You are a walking embodiment of that Leo DiCaprio "gotcha" GIF.

and are not about having to win the same civil rights afforded to other groups

And are in fact about a belief of different degrees of civil rights being awarded to different groups, where some get better provision than others.

For example that some male people must be included to choose from all the spaces, which must all be made mixed sex. Some female people who cannot cope with mixed sex spaces should lose their civil right to any provision and can rightfully be excluded as a punishment. Some people's right to feel emotionally safe and have choices over where they undress to meet their feelings of privacy and dignity are given high expectations and priorities. Other people should not have those rights, should be told to be kind and get over it, and if necessary be excluded and punished.

Very different to universal human rights. Not that progressive either.

The Human Rights Act 1998 sets out the fundamental rights and freedoms that everyone in the UK is entitled to. It incorporates the rights set out in the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) into domestic British law. The Human Rights Act came into force in the UK in October 2000

What human rights are covered by the Act?

Article 2: Right to life
Article 3: Freedom from torture and inhuman or degrading treatment
Article 4: Freedom from slavery and forced labour
Article 5: Right to liberty and security
Article 6: Right to a fair trial
Article 7: No punishment without law
Article 8: Respect for your private and family life, home and correspondence
Article 9: Freedom of thought, belief and religion
Article 10: Freedom of expression
Article 11: Freedom of assembly and association
Article 12: Right to marry and start a family
Article 14: Protection from discrimination in respect of these rights and freedoms
Protocol 1, Article 1: Right to peaceful enjoyment of your property
Protocol 1, Article 2: Right to education
Protocol 1, Article 3: Right to participate in free elections
Protocol 13, Article 1: Abolition of the death penalty

Groups who support transgender rights almost invariably support reproductive rights. I'm sure you'll find individual exceptions

Being in favour of Universal human Rights is not the preserve of the 'progressive left'. Most people are, of whatever persuasion.

Trans rights are something different, and are not about having to win the same civil rights afforded to other groups. Trans people already have equal rights - certainly in Britain, the West generally.

@Jsmith71596

I am curious if there are any examples of prominent anti-abortion groups or public figures coming out in support of trans rights?

Short answer, No.
Long answer, Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

Groups who support transgender rights almost invariably support reproductive rights. I'm sure you'll find individual exceptions.

Basically, if both stances are anti-feminist, are there examples of people or groups who take both

Being 'pro women' and 'feminist' need not necessarily mean the same thing; even if they do align in many respects. For some people pro-life arguments are based on pro- women ( female/motherhood) sentiments, as they see and understand them.

Hear hear, Michelle

Conversely, people obsessed with controlling other people's bodies, don't tend to be ....

I'm not using the phrase 'pro trans' as it's daft. No one is 'anti trans', women needing and having rights and biologically existing is not 'anti trans', I have no idea what 'pro trans' even means really.

But in rebuttal to that point:

• cotton ceiling
• lesbian females need to 'learn to cope with' what is essentially heterosexual sex (a fantastically misogynist view that appears to feel that enjoying sex is not a female person's entitlement in life, its a social duty they must learn to endure for the sake of others?)
• no right to privacy, dignity, any feelings of humiliation or right to remove consent to toilet, undress in sight of, shower with, sleep alongside, have intimate medical procedures discussed and done on the other side of a thin curtain from male born people whether they are willing or not under penalty of hate crime
• no right to join protests or even peaceful meetings to discuss needs and issues specific to biological females without enduring fury, harassment, kettling, smoke bombs, death and rape threats and punching in the face
• no right to any female only group for anything at all including medical needs which only happen to biological females: male supervision is mandatory if any male wishes to supervise.

Who has issues with controlling other people's bodies again?

It isn't GC feminists. Who largely want their bodies and everyone else's bodies left in peace, personal boundaries respected, personal sense and choice of identity, language and safe spaces respected for all instead of just for some, and children protected from making potentially lifetime damaging decisions.

I'm not sure accepting total sublimation of people into the stereotyped roles of the opposite sex is really pro trans rights.

This is what I can’t get my head around with the TWAW stance. It doesn’t actually seem very pro trans.

Basically, if both stances are anti-feminist, are there examples of people or groups who take both?

I don't think anyone opposes women's rights as an end in itself. Their intolerance stems fro.taking person beliefs to an extreme.

I'm not sure either stance is inherently anti-feminist. It's possible to disagree with abortion on religious grounds while respecting the right of women to choose and plenty manage to oppose transphobia while also respecting women's rights.

In the West those who criticise transgenderism as a lifestyle choice often also oppose abortion because the believe in 'traditional' gender roles. In Islamic countries you are more likely to see an acceptance of transitioned women from imams who oppose abortion but I'm sure it's also the case in some conservative Christian group somewhere.

I'm not sure accepting total sublimation of people into the stereotyped roles of the opposite sex is really pro trans rights. It's more like a way of dealing with the homosexuality 'problem' for those people.

@MaudTheInvincible well put and not something I had considered.

Its not a group but Iran?

I think your reasoning on this is a bit random.

But if I recall correctly, there is a pro-life group within the American Democratic party membership, they might also tend to be pro trans.

I have a friend who is a similar combination, a Democrat party member, generally quite progressive, but also tend to hold a pro-life position, and she's very pro trans. Like a lot of American progressives she sees that as being part of the LGBTQ+ family and very much a progressive position. She wouldn't see it as all connected to her pro-life views though, and I tend to think it isn't for people with her POV, so I'm not convinced you can draw some kind of causation or correlation there.

In terms of language use, the current demand to shift to 'gender-neutral' language when discussing subjects which pertain to sex does imo indeed allows for the erosion of women's ability to discuss their own bodies and experiences with precision and for the law to protect us. For example, if an abortion is something which might be required by 'people' rather than 'women', that creates a linguistic loophole for men to insert themselves and demand that their opinions are heard.

there won't be much we can do at that point if the biological sex class formerly known as women has suddenly disappeared from all our laws

Well there will. We're 52% of the population, it just requires enough of that biological sex class to wake up, experience the thundering locomotive heading down the track the result of not paying attention and being kind instead of engaging the brain, and start getting pissed off. When you drive a major section of your population over the edge you have a massive, massive problem; which is why many of us here have been saying for years, this will end nowhere with sunshine and rainbows for anyone.

Lots of 'sex positivity' which is largely about removing boundaries and social norms (see the anarchy links to the lobby), which primarily reframe things to benefit male people at the expense of silencing and devaluing female ones. Likewise surrogacy: the rights of female uterus bearers and children don't figure largely anywhere in this. You may notice a glaring lack of equality and reciprocal values being demonstrated in the narrative.

Incidentally those driving the 'there is no such thing as biology/ no sex class/ woman is a feeling not a reality' muddled narrative absolutely know what one is when they want a surrogate or an egg donor, and have no difficulty at all knowing who to listen to with great respect and value all feelings and wishes of, and who to tell their problems, feelings, voices and needs don't matter and shut up or [insert death/rape threat here] Likewise don't assign labels to (some) people they haven't chosen and don't reduce (some) people to their biological parts, but other people are now cervix havers and uterus bearers and resistance to obediently taking on the label is evidence of unacceptable behaviour and prejudice. [confusion]

None of it hangs together. The only consistent logic that links it at all is that everything always a shifting constellation that ensures female people are suppressed and subordinated to the wishes of male people and not allowed an independent voice.