Good Law project have succeeded...

An innate sense of self.

This is clearly something that you feel strongly about in yourself, and how you feel about yourself is your business and nobody else's. And what you do to your own body as an adult is also entirely up to you. But surely you can appreciate that an 'innate sense' which cannot be objectively observed doesn't give a reliable diagnosis which should result in medicating children's physically healthy bodies.

children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly

What does this mean? I've already quoted the part of the judgment which indicated that the child in this case liked to play with "girls' toys" (whatever that might mean) and was unhappy when trying to conform to "male stereotypes". There must have been something else going on with this child as well, because surely nobody would consider putting a child on a lifelong medical pathway because they didn't like gender stereotypes. Why shouldn't a boy prefer "girls' toys"? Why should he be forced to conform to male stereotypes?

What else is going on with these children that means they need to have their bodies irreversibly changed, making them sterile and probably lacking in sexual function? How are these diagnoses made? Why talk about stereotypes all the time, when stereotypes are irrelevant to a transgender identity?

In children, what is this 'gender identity' based on? It must be based on stereotypes, because that is all they really understand about the difference between boys and girls. So it seems children are being medicated because of stereotypes.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

But you still haven't explained how an 'innate sense of self' in the form of a 'gender identity' can be diagnosed in a child. Nor why this results in their body requiring such extreme modification to be carried out before they reach adulthood.

Do you think there are about 500,000 trans people in the UK? It used to be the case that, based on the prevalence of gender dysphoria, the number was assumed to be around 5000.

Robin Thank you for sharing your story and I am genuinely pleased that you have managed to find happiness. The concerns that many posters have is how to we identify between individuals such as yourself where it was a persistent feeling and individuals like themselves who struggled through puberty and would have jumped at the chance to checkout of womanhood, but are now happy [enough] in their own skin.

This is a conversation that needs to happen before children are placed on a pathway that will have lifelong effects.

This can only be anecdotal, but of the hundreds of trans individuals I have known personally over the past decade only two have detransitioned. One due to family pressure (go down this route and you wont see your children again) and the other becuse an unrelated heath condition meant they were unable to proceed with gender-confirming surgery.

You would deny the treatment pathway that has made my life worth living and to all the others?

Please spend more time making life better for all than bearing down on trans people.

I was not subject to pressure to be (or not be) anything. When at university in London I had gay friends - that defintely wasn't me - and if I hadnt suffered some pretty horrible workplace discrimination after my employer failed to respect my confidential disclosure to them that I was trans, I would have transition in my later 20's.

As it was, that vile treatment - itself pretty traumatic - put me back in my 'box' until my 40's. And since transition I have been comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life. And Im not alone. Its not pretending not to be gay, its not some weird sexual perversion (so no Blanchard comments, please.)

And in the decade since my transition I have met many trans individuals and - my estimate - around 20 families. They have, universally across the group, wanted to do the best for their children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly. The - frankly awful - comments about 'transing healthy children' and the like could not be written by anyone who had met those families.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

'Safeguarding Concerns at GIDS'

Could someone pm me the digging info ?

That case is going to be massively important in highlighting safeguarding failures. It does seem to be struggling for funds for some reason.

Sonia Appelby's case has potential implications for the effective Safeguarding/Child Protection of all children treated by NHS Trusts.

Done some digging

It's a real shame its struggling. How the court can hope for regulatory oversight and safeguards for children in the shadow of this is bizarre. It will be a very important case.

Just highlighting this as Sonia Appleby could do with some vital digging

That case is going to be massively important in highlighting safeguarding failures. It does seem to be struggling for funds for some reason.

I think it was also worth a mention that the former head of safeguarding at the Tavistock is currently taking them to court for failing to refer children to her.

Just highlighting this as Sonia Appleby could do with some vital digging.

Such an interesting judgment on so many levels and I agree with those who say it has undermined Bell.

I can understand and sympathise with why the Judge kept referring to these matters being better dealt with in a regulatory framework and academic review etc etc but this seemed to ignore the massive elephant in the room - that the regulatory framework had failed utterly. She did mention that the Tavistock had NEVER referred on any child regarding issues around consent. I think it was also worth a mention that the former head of safeguarding at the Tavistock is currently taking them to court for failing to refer children to her.

I do feel quite sorry for the Court of Appeal. They have a lot to sort out now.

I have tried to pull together the various concerns here. I wish the Judge had simply made a decision about XY and then left other matters for the Court of Appeal. There was no independent assessment of XY's capacity before the court. It all seems a mess.

childprotectionresource.online/consent-to-gender-affirming-treatment-ab-v-cd-ors-2021-ewhc-741-fam-26-march-2021/

I’m sorry to say the levels of hysteria, plain on these threads, particularly from those with no experience on trans individuals or children, about the needs of a very small minority, is really quite surprising

That's not how safeguarding works.

I've never had a high opinion of Cafcass in the first place. But this is a disgrace, that is a clear conflict of interest.

Frankly, all of this is sunlight. The days of unaccountability are over.

Good for them. Well done!

I’m sorry to say the levels of hysteria, plain on these threads, particularly from those with no experience on trans individuals or children, about the needs of a very small minority, is really quite surprising.

Can I ask how you are identifying which of us have experience with trans individuals or children, Robin?

12. XY came out to her parents as transgender when she was 10 years old in Year 5. According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls’ toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more “male” stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy, particularly at school.

I know it's been discussed upthread but I'm really unclear what this is saying.
What have "male" stereotypes got to do with being transgender? We are constantly told that gender has nothing to do with stereotypes, so what is the relevance here of a child not liking one set of stereotypes?

And the casual use of 'only 'girls' toys', like that's a THING for children. If this is a child that never wanted to play with a ball, a bike, blocks, lego, trains, play kitchen, play food, trampolines, stuffed animals, dolls' prams, magnetic letters, fuzzy felt... there is something else up here. (I'm assuming these are all non-girl toys as they are what boys in my family play with, and therefore I assume can't be "girls'", but am happy to be corrected if someone can provide the list of which toys are for girls and which are for boys.)

I think LangCleginSpace has it spot on with the list of things that parents should be told in order for them to give informed consent. Since the Bell judges said there is no age-appropriate way to explain some of the possible long-term effects, especially on sexual function and fertility, written consent to say the consenting parent have been informed and understand these facts/risks/uncertainties must be required and retained. I would add to that list:

The fact that there is no treatment that will change the child’s sex;
The current risks (with statistics where known) associated with full SRS;
The effect of puberty blockers on the options for MtF SRS - and the implications for male destransitioners who have had their puberty blocked;
The complications for women of cross-sex hormones, including necessitating hysterectomy due to uterine atrophy.

I have given informed consent to a treatment for me, whose listed possible complications included ‘death’. Adults assuming the right to consent to treatment for their children should be able to consider the risks above.

Robin The level of paranoia displayed here is quite remarkable. I don’t deny this may occur, but in the 20 or so families with trans children I know, this isn’t a feature, so it’s either very rare or I have had a remarkable strike rate

I hope you will read the article linked above. You will see that Sue and Marcus Evans decided to act because Dr David Bell had been approached by 20% of the GIDS clinicians voicing their concerns, and separately a group of concerned parents. You will also be aware that the Trusts Safeguarding Lead, Sonia Appleby, is taking them to court alleging that safeguarding concerns being brought to her by clinicians were shut down, and clinicians were discouraged from approaching her in the first place.

I haven't rtft so apologies if this has been discussed...

Alison Bailey has tweeted:

"The court did not order that Miss Bell’s solicitors be informed of proceedings or be allowed to participate. Instead, Cafcass was ordered to act as advocate for the court. No conflict of interests were identified ..."

twitter.com/bluskyeallison/status/1375813899434536965?s=21

This is the most wonderful, thoughtful piece on the treatment of transgender children by Sue and Marcus Evans. Absolutely worth your time to read. Their obsevations about trans children wanting to use a trans identity to supress parts of themselves they find distressing reminds me of Richard Hoskins. Richard is a successful author who identified as a woman for 4 years, having facial feminisation surgery and on tbe cusp of SRS before having counselling for the very sigificant trauma he had experienced. His desire to be a woman vanished - transitioning had been a way for him to deal, subconsciously, with trauma by becoming someone else.

quillette.com/2021/02/04/first-do-no-harm-a-new-model-for-treating-trans-identified-children/

My question to Robin and indeed anyone else, would be, if it's not homophobia (internalised or otherwise), not a reliance on stereotypes, not to do with past trauma or autism, then what is it?

Why are so many children saying are trans Robin? What is causing this unprecedented gender dysphoria in our children?

What is the cause in the 20 families you are personally aware of ?