Good Law project have succeeded...

So in the face of a poster here saying yeah ladies first is awesome.

Where does that leave people (women and girls) like me?

And I think I'm probably not on track for the thread but anyway.

I always felt like a person. Since I was a small child. I noticed when I was very frequently reminded I was a girl. Like all the bloody time.

As a result I was a feminist before I even knew the word.

I continued my life as a person. Not because i decided it but because that's what I was. All the time, all my life. All the bloody time I was going about being a person and I'd get xyz to remind me that no you're a girl.

Having said that I was female and heterosexual, so it's not like when I got to teenage years I didn't want boys to notice I was a girl

But it wasn't about sex (body type), really (but sometimes that I'll get to in a sec). It was about the nature of compliments. Hair. Dress. I couldn't give a fuck. Assumptions about what I would like to do. About my.. demeanor. I suppose. I hated it tbh. Spent a lot of time glaring. I was a slight girl with the things that mean 'pretty' in our culture. I was supposed to be pleased and simper and I don't even know at the constant positive comments about my looks. Nope. Ask me what I'm interested in. What I'm reading. Anything FFS.

'
But it wasn't about sex (body type), really (but sometimes that I'll get to in a sec)'

Going about being a person. And then. Eyes up and down. Smile love. Beeping cars. Etc etc. Going about my business and reminded I'm a girl. By men who think they can intrude on me in that way that they never would with a man. (Of course there was the following, threats, flashing etc as well). But at a fundamental level it was about being a person and being reminded I was female. Jarring and unpleasant.

The reason I write that bit is because of this.

'And the cultural - men give way to me in lifts'

You see I hate that. There I am being a person and it's pointed out that I'm not. Loads of women hate this. We're always told it's trivial.

I have worked in places where this is the norm and the interesting thing is that if you say no, you go first. Many don't want to. Really don't want to. Why on earth not? If it's a kind gesture then why not accept it? The refusal means there is something else going on. A woman being 'chivalrous' towards a man goes down really badly quite I lot. So.. what is going on then. And of course none of these men operate 'ladies first' when they're going home on the tube at rush hour. They're often the most sharp elbowed of the lot (my guess!).

tl;dr

In blunt terms. Sunk cost fallacy is a consideration here.

Also had a couple. Bear with me. This post is v personal.

I was born with a physical birth defect that wasn't realised until I was about 3. Before that when I was in pain my rather Victorian parents im guessing thought I was making a fuss etc.

Over the years it slowly worsened. It was an issue with my legs that meant I would occasionally collapse on the floor in massive pain.

My parents had connections in the medical world and were keen to get me fixed, as it were. They were told that it was no way until I had stopped growing (ish) IE puberty (that's not a point about this topic it's just what they said).

So it was pain, difference, doctors, wait. Then we can think about it.

In that time there were X-rays, consultations etc.

Anyway come 12 I think a doc said he would be prepared to try and fix me up. After consultations that I got taken out of school for. X-ray after x-ray. Loads of people prodding poking etc.

At some point in that process, and I'm nearly 50 now and being honest. As a child who could not do xyz like their friends. Who was in huge pain intermittently. I liked the poking and prodding. I liked the x-rays.

I was different in a way that meant it hurt and I couldn't do stuff. In hospital I was the centre of attention. I was taken out of school. It was a serious thing.

Anyway in the end a surgeon said yeah. It would be experimental ish. There were no guarantees. I could end up worse off or better off. It would be a long process.

I was all for it. Given the above I'm sure it's not hard to see why.

So I was in a specialist children's hospital in London. Honestly. It was a great time. I was given attention. I was with other children who had serious issues. We made friends. We were in and out of surgery. Ward rounds, x-rays, physio. I felt really. With people like me. Looked after. Special somehow. Different but in a good way rather than different on the outside.

So in and out, multiple surgeries, failed, redone, all sorts. That was my life 12 or 13 to 15ish.

After I was released my 6 monthly and then 12 monthly reviews at hosp in town were something I anticipated.

In the end. I had no idea what I was consenting to really. I had no concept of being, 18 or 20 etc. I was very young.

Was it the right thing to do? No idea.

Once you're in that situation then you go with it. And how can a child even begin to guage this stuff? No experience. Etc.

I suppose what I want to get across from this is that IME (and it is just my experience). If you are different, and in pain. The attention, care. Tests, checks. Concern. Serious conversations. I liked them. They made me feel accepted important cared for. Instead of different and in pain.

I loved X-rays I reckon I've had 300- 600 in my life.

So for all the conversations about consent and children etc. I thought maybe this very personal story might be of interest.

I asked you this before on another thread and you dismissed it as stupid.

I seem to remember Hibari accusing three High Court judges of arguing in bad faith

Hi robin nice to meet you :)

I don't know much about you at all tbh but I do recognise your name and I think you've posted before. Really interested to hear your views.

I've got two things I want to share the first more personal but relevant to the thread I think.

I'll put it in a couple of posts as I'm prone to deleting long posts by accident which is annoying. Good evening hibari and everyone else too.

@Hibari

I asked you this before on another thread and you dismissed it as stupid. This thread is about consent and access to puberty blockers. The judges in the Tavistock case set out the following criteria for children/parents to demonstrate their understanding. Do you agree or disagree with these criteria?

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

Genuine question, I am honestly not trying to be rude but I am struggling a bit with this one - why do you think they would do that to you? You are quite open about being a transwoman so I would find that somewhat surprising.

Can't answer for Robin but in my experience working with trans women in tech, they get treated much the same way I do. I once saw a male co-worker slowly try and re-explain something to a trans woman who literally wrote a book on the subject.

Seemed to apply to the bulk of sexist behaviours.

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly (I hold a pilot’s license).

Genuine question, I am honestly not trying to be rude but I am struggling a bit with this one - why do you think they would do that to you? You are quite open about being a transwoman so I would find that somewhat surprising.

(I hold a pilot’s license)

Ok, that does sound cool

Being endlessly patronised isn't amusing. It wears you down.

Well, there are the funny parts, like men explaining technical things to me very slowly

This is why you will never get it. You are implying that these men think you are female, but clearly, you will never understand that treating females as lesser than isn't 'funny'.

It's the cornerstone of a patriarchy which leads to the oppression of women everywhere.

Men giving way in lifts - what century are we in? Truly? Men giving way in lifts (doesn't happen in my somewhat egalitarian town) is not a marker of womanhood. Neither is friends greeting with a kiss.

No difference...smh...such denial of the lifelong impacts of being born female.

Delay until child or teen had reached cognitive maturity. Not deny. Why be hyperbolic?

nauticant

Do you think there are about 500,000 trans people in the UK? It used to be the case that, based on the prevalence of gender dysphoria, the number was assumed to be around 5000

We will see what the ONS comes up with but 500,000 is about 1 in 100 of the adult population. My husband was responsible for equality and diversity at a large university with 4000 staff. If this % was correct there should be 40 trans staff. He made extensive enquiries asking trans staff to contact him in confidence to enable him to get a sense of how many trans staff they had. A total of 3 people contacted him. So my guess is that the numbers are far lower.

And the cultural - men give way to me in lifts, I generally greet women friends with a kiss etc.

And I am usually referred to by my correct name and pronoun.

All that is great. In many areas there is no difference. In my professional, charitable and voluntary work I act with and am treated with appropriate respect and am known for speaking my mind, hopefully also appropriately.

Overall, despite life’s vicissitudes, I have been very fortunate and I try to give a bit back here and there, especially to aspiring and student lawyers. To my delight (and gentle embarrassment) I seem to have become well known as an LBGT lawyer and so am happy if that encourages those from any minority group (not just LGBT) to think that a career in the law, and particularly at the bar, might be for them.

If I stand for anything on trans issues generally, it is for the sensible middle ground where folk can get on with their lives without throwing handgrenades at each other.

And for that to happen, it needs to be acknowledged that people can't change sex, transwomen are transwomen, not women, and children are not 'trans'. Transsexualism is for adults.

Stop declaring that transwomen are women and leave children out of this. Then we can all just get on with our lives.

@RobinMoiraWhite

Isn’t a sensible middle ground this: that children can access puberty blockers if understanding of the following criteria set out by judges are met?

i) the immediate consequences of the treatment in physical and psychological terms;
(ii) the fact that the vast majority of patients taking puberty blocking drugs proceed to taking cross-sex hormones and are, therefore, a pathway to much greater medical interventions;
(iii) the relationship between taking cross-sex hormones and subsequent surgery, with the implications of such surgery;
(iv) the fact that cross-sex hormones may well lead to a loss of fertility;
(v) the impact of cross-sex hormones on sexual function;
(vi) the impact that taking this step on this treatment pathway may have on future and life-long relationships;
(vii) the unknown physical consequences of taking puberty blocking drugs; and
(viii) the fact that the evidence base for this treatment is as yet highly uncertain

If children and/or their parents are competent and can demonstrate understanding they get puberty blockers. If they aren’t, they don’t and they children are protected. Would you agree?

Robin - how would you characterise the difference with how you lived your life pre and post transition from other people’s point of view? What is it the difference that you detect in other peoples behaviour towards you?

I have no idea how I could influence other people to treat me differently in life. I am what I am. I do notice that I am not treated with the same respect as my husband in some circumstances. In some situations I have been told to check information with my husband when I am the person running our building project and he has no idea what is going on. I redesigned our hot water/heating/power system (with a innovative, very cost effective solution) myself but sometimes people look to my husband when discussing even though he can’t even turn on the hot water tank.

What are the positive impacts that transwomen experience in life from their treatment by others?

I note that the only thing you choose to comment on is a definition.

I my legal work I have represented and advised equally individuals bringing and organisations defending trans claims.

If I stand for anything on trans issues generally, it is for the sensible middle ground where folk can get on with their lives without throwing handgrenades at each other.

From reading around this issue I'd say that detransition in the cohort who used to be referred to as "transsexuals", the estimated 5000 people for whom the GRA 2004 was passed, is low, but detransition is high among those who have recently been transitioning as teenagers, particularly teenage girls.

One frustrating thing about reading arguments from trans activists like RobinMoiraWhite is that they're based on what "trans" meant more than a decade ago but the problems this board are concerned with are caused by what "trans" means now. If this enormous shift in meaning is not part of the argument then it's effectively a misdirection.

This can only be anecdotal

Yes it can only be anecdotal because at the moment nobody is collecting the actual data on detransition so the oft quoted 1% is essentially a made up number. Also if we are relying on anecdotes as evidence the numbers of detransitioners (esp young women) are rapidly rising and they are having to struggle with the consequences of surgeries and medications with very little support. So really the best thing to do would be to start collecting the data so we no longer have to rely on anecdotes and made up or out of date statistics.

RobinMoiraWhite

Datun
My question to Robin and indeed anyone else, would be, if it's not homophobia (internalised or otherwise), not a reliance on stereotypes, not to do with past trauma or autism, then what is it?

Why are so many children saying are trans Robin? What is causing this unprecedented gender dysphoria in our children?

What is the cause in the 20 families you are personally aware of ?
An innate sense of self.

I was not subject to pressure to be (or not be) anything. When at university in London I had gay friends - that defintely wasn't me - and if I hadnt suffered some pretty horrible workplace discrimination after my employer failed to respect my confidential disclosure to them that I was trans, I would have transition in my later 20's.

As it was, that vile treatment - itself pretty traumatic - put me back in my 'box' until my 40's. And since transition I have been comfortable in my own skin for the first time in my life. And Im not alone. Its not pretending not to be gay, its not some weird sexual perversion (so no Blanchard comments, please.)

And in the decade since my transition I have met many trans individuals and - my estimate - around 20 families. They have, universally across the group, wanted to do the best for their children who hve been expressing their gender identity strongly. The - frankly awful - comments about 'transing healthy children' and the like could not be written by anyone who had met those families.

There are legitimate questions to be asked about the rigour of counselling and option-exploring before following such routes, the growth in the number of FtM transitioners and the crossover with autism. But none of that justifies a 'we know best and you must be wrong' attitude to young trans people and their parents.

---

^ so no answer to my question? Other than please don't talk about Ray Blanchards typology?

I'm not being funny, Robin but I have never yet had an answer. And I have had a zillion transwomen telling me we mustn't talk about Ray Blanchard.

It doesn't address a thing.

Robin No one wants to stop Trans individuals receiving treatment, but the pathway now is very different to your experience. Before this is accepted there needs to be assurances that it is safe and beneficial. These do not exist at the moment.