Good Law project have succeeded...

Came out as transgender at 10 YEARS OLD. This always blows my mind. Still at primary school. Doesn’t know anything about adult sexual relationships. Doesn’t understand what being gay is. As parents are separated presumably some discord in the home. What about just letting XY be? Let XY play with whatever toys they want, without labelling or comment?

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks.

Frontiers in Psychiatry, 29 March 2021
A Follow-Up Study of Boys With Gender Identity Disorder
Devita Singh, Susan J. Bradley and Kenneth J. Zucker

(extract)
"This study reports follow-up data on the largest sample to date of boys clinic-referred for gender dysphoria (n = 139) with regard to gender identity and sexual orientation. In childhood, the boys were assessed at a mean age of 7.49 years (range, 3.33–12.99) at a mean year of 1989 and followed-up at a mean age of 20.58 years (range, 13.07–39.15) at a mean year of 2002. In childhood, 88 (63.3%) of the boys met the DSM-III, III-R, or IV criteria for gender identity disorder; the remaining 51 (36.7%) boys were subthreshold for the criteria. At follow-up, gender identity/dysphoria was assessed via multiple methods and the participants were classified as either persisters or desisters. Sexual orientation was ascertained for both fantasy and behavior and then dichotomized as either biphilic/androphilic or gynephilic. Of the 139 participants, 17 (12.2%) were classified as persisters and the remaining 122 (87.8%) were classified as desisters. Data on sexual orientation in fantasy were available for 129 participants: 82 (63.6%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 43 (33.3%) were classified as gynephilic, and 4 (3.1%) reported no sexual fantasies. For sexual orientation in behavior, data were available for 108 participants: 51 (47.2%) were classified as biphilic/androphilic, 29 (26.9%) were classified as gynephilic, and 28 (25.9%) reported no sexual behaviors. Multinomial logistic regression examined predictors of outcome for the biphilic/androphilic persisters and the gynephilic desisters, with the biphilic/androphilic desisters as the reference group. Compared to the reference group, the biphilic/androphilic persisters tended to be older at the time of the assessment in childhood, were from a lower social class background, and, on a dimensional composite of sex-typed behavior in childhood were more gender-variant. The biphilic/androphilic desisters were more gender-variant compared to the gynephilic desisters. Boys clinic-referred for gender identity concerns in childhood had a high rate of desistance and a high rate of a biphilic/androphilic sexual orientation. The implications of the data for current models of care for the treatment of gender dysphoria in children are discussed." (continues)

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2021.632784/full

Transgender Trend
"Important new study from Singh, Bradley & @ ZUCKERKJ
on gender identity & sexual orientation of clinic-referred pre-pubertal boys. Largest sample to date. Follow-up mean age 20.58 yrs. Findings: 12.2% persistence 87.8 % desistance; 63.6% gay."
twitter.com/Transgendertrd/status/1376453938992578560

From the judgement:
"XY was born a boy and is now aged 15. I have witness statements from both parents and from XY, and XY wrote me a letter. The parents are separated but live close to each other and XY spends considerable time with both parents. I have not heard oral evidence, but I have no reason not to fully accept what is said in the written statements and I rely on those statements in the summary of the facts I set out below.
XY came out to her parents as transgender when she was 10 years old in Year 5. According to AB, XY had always only been interested in girls' toys and clothes. When at primary school she, for a period, tried to conform to a more "male" stereotype but she was utterly miserable, became very withdrawn, and was shy and unhappy, particularly at school.
She came out to her parents about being transgender after reading a book where one of the main characters was transgender. According to her mother, once she started going to school as a girl her confidence grew, and she became much happier. The parents first made contact with the GIDS Unit when XY was 10 years old. XY has now fully transitioned socially in all aspects of her life including legal paperwork. She changed her name by deed poll in 2016."

As is demonstrated by findings of the study, a significant percentage of the young boys identified as having 'gender dysphoria' in childhood would in fact grow up to be gay men.

There was another thread where this was mentioned I believe.

Well sure but that's kind of a different matter

She received rather a lot of bad treatment based on her sex and found various barriers to completing the training because of her sex but she persisted and succeeded.

I remain very impressed with her determination and very cool job.

I'm happy to leave you alone. You made a choice to post here, nobody forced you to do that. I've already said I consider it your business and yours alone what you do to your body. I accept you are a transwoman

In return think about your imposition on other people, and when you should leave them alone. Children shouldn't be medicated for non-conformity to outdated stereotypes. And you should stop claiming to speak for women

Good points. Both of which cut to the heart of this conflict.

That’s the other thing people do, as well as ignore: deflect. And not just deflect, but twist legitimate concerns into “bigotry”.

“We are concerned about consent for puberty blockers and the long term impact on children, lack of efficacy, and negative effects.”

“Stop the relentless attacks on trans people!”

Like I said, I don’t think the children really matter to these people.

Liked the

I HOLD A PILOTS LICENCE

part

Does anyone else feel like we've had the dismissive mechanic treatment?

Apparently a ticking off and a head pat is sufficient. I'm afraid though that for me it is not, and fuels my concerns more than reduces them.

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

'Bye for now.

So, no answers? At all?

Is a very effeminate gay boy a woman
or simply a very effeminate gay boy?

Is a tomboy a man
or simply a shovel faced lesbian to quote Ruth Davison ?

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

I am very happy to accept people as they are and would love for them to be living their best life, as long as we can maintain female only single sex spaces, services and protections.

That is my boundary. That is all I ask and I don’t think it is unreasonable.

I am very happy for other people to have their own exclusive groups, services and resources and I would like to maintain mine.

Sexism isn't funny

Or a momentary, vicarious thrill.

Those stories demonstrating that men like to feel superior have definitely opened my eyes. I had never realised before!

Imagine working in the justice system and thinking that being "irked" (which apparently now means "enraged") about injustice is a bad thing.

It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

Oh for goodness sake.

Relentless attacks - aka defending rights, resisting the taking of needed sex based rights and language, resisting excluding female people from female spaces. I've never yet heard any women's group use death or rape threats in their defense of women's sex based needs and rights but I've seen relentless floods of them to women.

If you can't be big enough to accept us

If you could be big enough to accept women and their sex based needs and the reality of things they are saying about safeguarding then we wouldn't have this problem.

Women I think would dearly love to be left alone and not have to spend their lives constantly funding court cases, writing to MPs, mobilising and arguing here trying desperately to be heard. It isn't an option they are being permitted. And it fucking sucks Robin. It really, truly, to my gut, sucks.

A bit of reciprocation in your values would go a hell of a long way.

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks.

There were various campaigns for acceptance during the same time period over which this was achieved.

Lesbian and gay rights impinged upon nobody else’s rights and after a long period of persuasion and reassurance, this came to be fully accepted, initially by the general population and thereafter in parliament.

Other groups which campaigned were unsuccessful as it became apparent that there were clear conflict of rights with other groups.

Only time will tell which way it will go with the current rights claims.

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

But being trans is nothing like being gay. We all know what 'gay' means. What is a gender identity? We don't know. Nobody can define it. How do you protect a characteristic which can't be defined? Why are children being medicated for this aspect of their personality which can't be defined? Why do you think this is OK?

If children are going to be put on a lifelong irreversible medical pathway, we should not be doing that because of a characteristic which nobody can even define, much less diagnose with objective criteria which should be close to 100% correct every time.

What was it you said? 'An innate sense of self'? There is no objectivity here, and if you can't explain it to the intelligent people posting here, do you think we're going to be convinced that a child understands what this is better than we do?

I'm happy to leave you alone. You made a choice to post here, nobody forced you to do that. I've already said I consider it your business and yours alone what you do to your body. I accept you are a transwoman.

In return think about your imposition on other people, and when you should leave them alone. Children shouldn't be medicated for non-conformity to outdated stereotypes. And you should stop claiming to speak for women.

What a shame Robin that you signed off without answering Notbad's very simple question about the Bell judgement:

And what’s your view? On any of the 8 criteria?

Given the number of times you've posted on this thread, and given your professional legal expertise, I find it very hard to understand how you wouldn't have formed an opinion on this.

Of course you don't have to answer if you don't want to but the silence is really very telling.

My great long personal posts and the only thing responded to was the word awesome.

Bloody hell.

A mechanic saying look lady is odd. Did it happen in the USA? Maybe other parts of the country use it? No one would say that round here.

Also the hahaha at being patronised.
Women don't find it amusing, it pisses us off.

YY to the questions about wtf that anecdote is supposed to tell us anyway.

I think we have again the two separate experiences of someone who has chosen to opt in, and those without the option to opt out. Validation is a pleasant thing when it validates what has been intentionally chosen: those who have not chosen to be treated in this way, have no escape from it and find no pleasure in being stuck with that subordinated, tedious place in life, will obviously find it rather different.

I think this is spot on. I also think it's particularly important to bear in mind that those who opt in know that they can always opt out again if it becomes too much.

But still you'll never get it right
'Cause when you're laid in bed at night
Watching roaches climb the wall
If you called your dad he could stop it all

I'm signing off now, as I have work to do, but I did note the following from 'Datun':

-It's clearly pointless explaining, as I don't think Robin will ever see it.

I'm not really surprised, but it is, nonetheless, a bit of an eye-opener. Little wonder that there are so many people who have not been subjected to a life time of sexism, who see nothing wrong in medically treating children, particularly girls, who want to escape being girls.

I have asked a million times, what do they think causes gender dysphoria? It's like their analysis of the situation can only begin after the diagnosis. The actual reason for it is never addressed, it's glossed over. Or called something meaningless like a sense of self.'

Some years ago we gave up trying to work out why some people are gay and moved on to accepting them, integrating them and helping them live well. It is time to do that with trans individuals and stop the relentless attacks. If you can't be big enough to accept us, as most of the population do, then just leave us alone and find somewhere else to turn your efforts to helping your fellow humans.

'Bye for now.