Feminism and Buffy the Vampire Slayer

I've been rewatching recently and realised that I'm less surprised by Buffy taking Spike back after he's tried to rape her and more that a show aired at 6pm had an attempted rape scene and repeatedly and starkly said spike tried to rape her.

in real life at the time (& likely now) his actions would have been hugely minimised as a misunderstanding/ just a bit pushy / her fault for all the 'I hate you, let's shag' goings on up till then.

There is zero chance the CPS would have taken it to trial as attempted rape. Even aside from the concern about courtroom spontaneous combustion.

I loved Buffy as a teenager and will always have a soft spot for it. I rewatched it recently though and as others have observed there are lots of elements that don't sit comfortably with me now, particularly the glamorisation of fucked-up abusive relationships as romantic.

I think looking back it's strengths don't really lie in the feminist angles (which are quite superficial really - superstrong woman beats up lots of men) but in its exploration of other topics - teenage insecurities and friendship dynamics, growing up and struggling with adult responsibilities, finding your place in the world, bereavement, mental health, addiction etc.

Nah.

I'm rewatching Buffy and loving it. It is showing its age in the way it suggests all boys / men think about or talk about is what they want to do to the girls. It sort of normalised objectification - the way the older supposedly nice soldier college boys talk about her in once scene was gross.
Best character is Spike - love the sarcastic clever quips, eye rolling and contradictions in being both evil and vulnerable.

The weedy one with the bad dye job? Lordy no.

Or, as someone once described Spike to me, what turns up when you order Billy Idol from Wish.

What the fuck?!

Fucks sake.

It's like an invasion of out of towner, middle-aged slobby, blokey tourists thinking they can 'av it large, and 'av it loud' in our manor on a 'Weekender - just 'coz.

DD can't stand Buffy, she sees through the bits I excuse through nostalgia. She's very sensitive to crappy relationships and flawed people doing bad things. Also the affected "valley" style conversations are not cute and funny to her.

She's her father's daughter, but I guess it's ok as it means she sees the flaws

Me? I love Buffy forever.

I have a Buffy tattoo so that sums up how I feel about it
It's been my constant comfort blanket through school, college, post surgery etc

I began to feel really uncomfortable with the violence leads to sex theme when Buffy was with the soldier boyfriend the first time I watched the series. Can’t even remember his name. I thought the show lost much of its magic by that stage.

Then more recently it made me reflect back on the whole thing, did it actually contribute to normalising violence against women as entertainment because “it is okay, she has superpowers”. Did it (and Firefly) also contribute to the belief prominent among many liberal feminists that women actually are as strong as men or do stand a chance in a fight against a man. Yes some young women seem to actually believe this. It is potentially a dangerous fantasy.

Second time round I tried watching with my daughters and the sexism stood out even from season 1. My daughters noticed it and we didn’t get very far. It was disappointing after having loved it in the 90’s. In was really innovative in style then so I think that made it particularly enjoyable.

It is interesting to note how sexism has changed focus over the past 30 years. You put out fires in one place and they spring up in another.

Drusilla was a great character in my opinion, so was Tara but Cordelia was probably my favourite in the end. I actually knew someone a bit like her at school who went through a similar metamorphosis.

I do think that the women fighting scenes seemed too much aimed at the male gaze.

I've started noticing that women who fight- especially when they fight each other- have a kind of sexualised, male gaze, hot cat fight vibe. I watched the last season of Westworld and it really tanked into 'two hot women fighting' mode. Almost as obvious as the 'lesbian sex' trope.

I only saw it in Buffy with hindsight though, and may have been looking for it.

“And, of course, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy which Masters has said he thought didn't work the way intended as a spur for him to get a soul, but I thought the worst bit was that Buffy accepted him back after as though that wouldn't have a profound impact.”

She doesn’t though... well not explicitly, it’s left fairly ambiguous as to whether they’re together in that sense - on purpose according to things like writers and directors commentaries.

One of the things about how spike behaves though... is that he is literally a monster, as a viewer you want him to be the romantic hero, because he’s funny and nice to dawn and you want him to follow that whole redemption arc because love will save him.

But he’s not that person, he isn’t even a person and it wasn’t that long beforehand that he had the buffy bot...

I'm watching it with DD at the moment. I didn't pick up on the wonderful realism of season 6 and Buffys sudden burden of parenting Dawn, running the house and saving the world before. Its a interesting take on being a single parent.

I watched and loved it when it came out (i was the same age as Buffy) and watched again in lockdown. I still love it, but there's lots to be disturbed by. When I was a teenager Xander's 'nice guy' routine went over my head but on rewatch I thought he was the worst. I also found Willow's manipulation of Tara and Spike's attempted rape of Buffy very unsettling.

I do think it mostly stands up.

I liked the fact that she had massively fucked up relationships. It showed that someone could be so strong to the outside world and still vulnerable and a mess in other parts of her lives. She was stronger and a better fighter than all the men but they still could hurt her. She deserved better but that would be terrible tv!

Central female character with agency. Doesn't just have conversations about men. Flawed. Independent.

Jeezo. It would be amazing NOW much less 20+ years ago.

I'm a huge fan, but I know what you mean. Have just watched it with my 12 year olds and there were bits I'd forgotten were really not great. With Buffy Whedon really sets women (and girls - since that was the initial audience) up to accept poor relationships. Which, knowing what we know now may be because he's an atrocious partner.

He constantly has couples coming back together after fairly unforgiveable treatment. The Cordy/Xander Willow/Oz betrayal in season 3 with Oz accepting Willow made a mistake and being okay with her still hanging around with Xander seemed pretty unbelievable to me, especially when he then couldn't control himself when later found out about Tara. (I did like Cordelia's reaction, though). Later there were the issues with Willow playing with Tara's memory and Tara still coming back to Willow. And, of course, Spike's attempted rape of Buffy which Masters has said he thought didn't work the way intended as a spur for him to get a soul, but I thought the worst bit was that Buffy accepted him back after as though that wouldn't have a profound impact. There were other bits too, and no really good relationships (though I get that stability is generally not a TV show friendly). Altogether it reads as a desperate plea for acceptance of poor behaviour to me.

As for the chiselled jaw guy I think that means you're team Spike by default

The weedy one with the bad dye job? Lordy no.

I couldn't stand Buffy, either the series or Buffy herself and her weak chin and endless moping around. The men were awful too, especially the thick looking one with the chiselled jaw.

Buffy manages to not regurgitate endless cliches - I'm especially bored of the plot twist where it turns out that a woman is actually the supervillain.
I like the idea that it's a modern fairytale. Girls need more of the old ''be smart, watch your back, this is what Mr Wrong looks like'' kind of fairytale.